Werewolf CXII - Dueling Wizards III - The Living Thread

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I was a very selfish Ranger this game, but it appears to have been the right choice a couple times? I really thought the narration was pointing to me blocking the EW targeting me somehow, so I felt it best to keep that up.

Much love, my heart. We tried.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Kuru

I think the way to tweak this is through the Seer. That way the Good Wizard could use Seer scrys to feel more confident in creating Visitors and have more information available to do so. I had the impression in the game, although Nerwen never said anything specific about it, that she didn't feel like she could take the time to make a Visitor because the Evil Team had her under so much pressure that she had to focus solely on trying to counteract them and not take time to gather information from the Dead Thread.

That is exactly it, Kuru. Recall, though that you'd decided a Seer was redundant because the GW's scry ability duplicated it, which I myself agreed with at the time. It took actual gameplay to show the issues- which is very often the way. I really didn't think it would be fair to you to complain about it.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I was a very selfish Ranger this game, but it appears to have been the right choice a couple times? I really thought the narration was pointing to me blocking the EW targeting me somehow, so I felt it best to keep that up.

Much love, my heart. We tried.

We certainly did, my treasure.

[Morsul the Dark]

Nerwen

I was quite excited when you picked up on my little joke.

[Lalaith]

So, what *were* the rules about what could be communicated between GW and minions?
Could Nerwen, for example, communicate to Eonwe: "known innocents are Nerwen and Shasta?"
Or say to Shasta, i think you should protect x tonight? Or say to both - I have found that Sally is a wolf? (if that were indeed the case)?

Nerwen, did you scry as well as create roles? Who were your known innocents? Did you ever find Legate? Did you find any wolves?

Also I was thinking about Visitors - one of the drawbacks I was thinking of, and I think I
mentioned this during the course of the game, is that because they will no longer, if innocent, be counted amongst the living, the GW would in effect be killing off one of her own team. That would inform my reluctance to use that role, if I'd been GW.

[Lalaith]

Oh and another thing...how would things have played out if either Eomer or I had listened to Nerwen and voted for Legate?

He would obviously not have been lynched...would it have helped the GW team on the last Night? Could Nerwen have challenged him to a duel during the Night, would that have stopped the creation of a new wolf?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

So, what *were* the rules about what could be communicated between GW and minions?
Could Nerwen, for example, communicate to Eonwe: "known innocents are Nerwen and Shasta?"
Or say to Shasta, i think you should protect x tonight? Or say to both - I have found that Sally is a wolf? (if that were indeed the case)?

Yes, basically that. Alignment information of players could be discussed, there wouldn't be much point in the Good Wizard being able to communicate at all if she couldn't discuss whether somebody was innocent.

Specific role information was always edited...although I'm pretty sure I probably inadvertently referred to Nerwen as "she" in several PMs to Shasta and Steve. I was sending so many PMs to all different people, I was terrified I was going to ruin the game for everyone by accidentally sending the wrong one to the wrong person. I'm pretty sure my agitation disrupted my editing ability. I was also traveling the last DAY which made everything worse for me and the Good Team.

Also I was thinking about Visitors - one of the drawbacks I was thinking of, and I think I
mentioned this during the course of the game, is that because they will no longer, if innocent, be counted amongst the living, the GW would in effect be killing off one of her own team. That would inform my reluctance to use that role, if I'd been GW.

Yes, that is true and it is potentially a powerful drawback, but the Visitor is potentially a powerful, game-winning role. At least I hope it is...technically it still has not been tried out. But I think it needs a substantial weakness to balance it out.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Oh and another thing...how would things have played out if either Eomer or I had listened to Nerwen and voted for Legate?

He would obviously not have been lynched...would it have helped the GW team on the last Night? Could Nerwen have challenged him to a duel during the Night, would that have stopped the creation of a new wolf?

I would have written something about the guillotine blade passing through Legate's neck without doing any damage. I wouldn't have said which wizard he was, but Nerwen obviously would have known at that point.

Duels can only take place during the DAY.

The sad fact for the Good side in this is that by the last DAY, they had already squeaked out an extension of the game the previous NIGHT when they were on the cusp of defeat. By focusing on Legate during the DAY, no matter how it turned out, they were ensuring that the best they could do was again face the brink of defeat and squeak out again. An unlikely prospect...although in a way they still got close.

Nerwen was, as one would expect, very clever in trying to use the Visitor role to rid herself of a wolf that NIGHT. Unfortunately, that could not be done to Legate. That is part of why Legate's play in this game was so brilliant. He did exactly what he needed to do to seal the win for his team. He got attention focused on himself, who was invulnerable, and kept the Good Team from winning.

If Steve had ended up being lynched, he was hunting Legate. Legate would have been exposed in the narration because he wouldn't die to the Hunter attack, but the Good Team would have been in even worse shape as far as numbers were concerned.

[Lalaith]

Nerwen was, as one would expect, very clever in trying to use the Visitor role to rid herself of a wolf that NIGHT. Unfortunately, that could not be done to Legate. That is part of why Legate's play in this game was so brilliant. He did exactly what he needed to do to seal the win for his team. He got attention focused on himself, who was invulnerable, and kept the Good Team from winning.

Right...so if she'd known that Legate was the wizard (through the failed lynch) she could have tried to use the visitor role on someone else instead, possibly Brinn who she clearly suspected. Which could have given us an extra day...ah well.

So neither wizard knew of each other's identity?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Nerwen

I was quite excited when you picked up on my little joke.

I was quite excited when I noticed it!

[Mithalwen]

I do like the idea of the ordos having a bit more to do... although I can also see it backfiring. Of course in this game we couldn't actually have killed Legate but maybe the dead could get some sort of one hit assassin power if certain criteria were met. You know like in Don Giovanni when the Commendatore drags his murderer down to Hell. Anyway having been thoroughly jaded with werewolf this certainly stimulated my few remaining grey cells.

[Pervinca Took]

Sorry everyone for withdrawing. I was so confused that I could not participate properly and I felt really bad about it as it was not fair on the other players. Anyway, I'm glad you had a good game, and I am always in the Password thread (Quiz Room subforum) if anyone wants to join in!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Sorry everyone for withdrawing. I was so confused that I could not participate properly and I felt really bad about it as it was not fair on the other players. Anyway, I'm glad you had a good game, and I am always in the Password thread (Quiz forum) if anyone wants to join in!

Speaking for everyone, don't worry about it.

WW is a really fun game, but this one was intricate enough (as evidenced by our obvious confusion at times) even for veterans, that it's no wonder you might have felt overwhelmed. I hope you'll perhaps read up on some old games, and maybe join in a more basic game in the future!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

It was interesting that in this game the Bad Side excelled in the DAY phase of the game and the Good Side excelled in the NIGHT.

Actually YES. I think that is a good description. Honestly, we couldn't get through that blockade...

Originally Posted by Kuru

I will admit to rolling my eyes a smidgen when she immediately picked Shasta as Ranger. Mostly because they were both in the exact same roles as the last game I modded. I also thought it would be such an obvious move that Legate would pick up on it immediately. He didn't seem to, though.

Actually, in one of my first sort of "drafts" of how I could proceed after I learned my role, I considered both Nerwen and Shasta as options for my Night 1 picks. Eventually, I partly stayed away from them on purpose, exactly because a) I didn't want to open that case - targeting one would mean deciding what about the other, b) I was afraid (and from the looks of it, such fear was reasonable) that if I picked one, then if the other was a Wizard or somesuch, they would scry the other one.

Originally Posted by Kuru

The first major thing I would change is I would give the Evil Wizard two NIGHT 1 picks instead of one. I would do this partially to still give Evil Team a running start at the beginning of the game ahead of the two scrys they would be facing (more on this below). The main reason though would be because of the loyalty issue. It is hard on players, especially toward the end of the game, to have invested so much on one side and then suddenly have that taken away. It would still need to be a part of the game, but I think maybe having three strikes at it is too many.

Yes. I absolutely support that. Also, having two Wolves in the beginning, I daresay, makes it also easier for the village to catch them, simply because of the percentage. (You'd basically have three baddies just like in a normal village.)

More importantly, yes, I have been thinking about the loyalty issue a lot and I actually was taking it into account during my picks. We literally discarded some picks for turning just on the basis of that we knew those players wouldn't like it. By the way that is also why the failed picks were so frustrating, I knew the further in the game it was, the worse it would be for the players we turned. That's why e.g. personally, after Day 4 or somesuch I felt really comfortably about turning just a handful of people - Eomer was among them, incidentally; although our final pick on the last Night was obviously purely utilitarian. Already my attempt to turn Shasta on the Night before was based on the idea that he probably would be able to adapt to his new role fairly well if it came to that. Sadly, he had been already spoken for.

Originally Posted by Kuru

In a broader sense I think the Seer role would have been better because it would have put pressure on the Evil Team, which was a bit lacking in the game. I know Legate and Company will probably feel different about this but they were never significantly pressured during the game and while I think this is in large part attributable to how very well they played, I think the game was a bit balanced in their direction. I think the Seer role (which I discarded thinking it was the best decision at the time) would be a much better fit for this format. It would bring much greater and genuine utility to the Good side and pose a more significant threat to the Bad Side.

In a way yes. Although personally, I think when the GW can function as the Seer, it is okay, but having a Seer separately could ensure continuing presence of a "knowing Gifted" even after GW's possible departure, especially in a game where nobody knows anything. I think personally THAT is the main issue and that leads me to my last point, where I actually contrary to Kuru believe that the key to the game isn't so much in changing anything about the Seer, but...

Originally Posted by Kuru

I'm actually far more disappointed that the Visitors were not used, or were used so late that it didn't happen...and wasn't at all used for the purpose originally intended.

I think the Visitors were a great idea but they should be made more significant. Especially because the knowledge is really so scarce in this game. Maybe they should be independant of the GW. Maybe they should be a hidden role that exists since the beginning. Or one of them: i.e. make the GW create one Visitor, but another Visitor would exist regardless of that. Something. I don't have a clear idea about this, but I am pretty sure this would help the game, the balance, and the flow of information a lot if done right.

Because in my opinion the problem isn't fixed by the Seer, it would just mean that the Gifteds etc. know more, but we need to make sure that the whole village knows more. And the Visitor (who doesn't need to think about self-preservation and can just shout the truth - or the perceived truth - after returning from the dead) could do just that.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I do like the idea of the ordos having a bit more to do... although I can also see it backfiring. Of course in this game we couldn't actually have killed Legate but maybe the dead could get some sort of one hit assassin power if certain criteria were met. You know like in Don Giovanni when the Commendatore drags his murderer down to Hell. Anyway having been thoroughly jaded with werewolf this certainly stimulated my few remaining grey cells.

That's a cool concept, and flavouful; I really like that kind of image. Something like that could work as well.

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Sorry everyone for withdrawing. I was so confused that I could not participate properly and I felt really bad about it as it was not fair on the other players. Anyway, I'm glad you had a good game, and I am always in the Password thread (Quiz forum) if anyone wants to join in!

We are sorry you couldn't see this through, but as others have said, it wasn't the easiest game to start with. Maybe you can try again when some "normal" game with basic rules starts. We'd be happy to see you