Werewolf CXII - Dueling Wizards III - The Living Thread

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

2. People would need to start voting earlier on the Living Thread so the Dead have time to discuss who is the best option out of those who have votes. I mean, I suppose they could agree to some kind of ranking, but I can imagine many ways in which that could get messed up.

That was the main thing in the last Dead thread! That's why it should be clear asap, and not changed. In the previous game, some of us had to vote waaay before DL, while the Living were merrily chatting about weather, and then somebody remembered they should give us a list, so they gave us one, so we were "finally, a list! Now we can vote!" And right after we voted, the Living said "hey, wait a second, we came up even with a better list! How about instead we do it like this!" And then our votes which had been already cast suddenly meant something completely different than they did before. So that's why it is really important we sort this out.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

That said, I think it is better to include the "none of the above/something else" option rather than the "they voted each other/they voted themselves" option, because does that really tell us anything? You could sum them up under the same thing, at least. "There was a tie". And leave the last part for "none of the above". I mean, I can't imagine what the "none of the above" would be, but. (Well maybe it could be "We are not going to run according to your schemes and we're going to do our own stuff like Nog suggests?" That would also solve that debate.)

Anyway I am actually going to use the nice weather here IRL and take tortoises out for a pasture (yes, you heard right), but I should be back in not such a long time. Try to figure out something with the Dead debate.

[Lalaith]

That said, I think it is better to include the "none of the above/something else" option rather than the "they voted each other/they voted themselves" option, because does that really tell us anything?

I agree. I don't want to chop us all up into little portions of two villagers the way Eonwe is now suggesting, it could in theory force the Dead to choose between empowering the wicked and the stupid.
I'm ok with a list and I think that the Dead (at least the innocents) would try to vote for Zil.
So I think we should be sectioned into three ways, Zil bad, Zil good, none of the above.That way the Dead have plenty of choice.

[Lalaith]

I'm going out and will be back later with lots of thoughts...but I thought I'd get my views on the Dead out there asap as I agree we need early agreement.
Also I have two questions, which may be for Kuru alone to answer as I can't find it in the Rules.
That is because the ideas that I have are based on two assumptions - one is that the Wizards cannot continue making roles once they are in the Dead Thread. The other is that a win for wolves and EW is the same as it is in an ordinary game, ie live wolves have to outnumber live villagers.
Are both my assumptions correct?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I agree. I don't want to chop us all up into little portions of two villagers the way Eonwe is now suggesting, it could in theory force the Dead to choose between empowering the wicked and the stupid.
I'm ok with a list and I think that the Dead (at least the innocents) would try to vote for Zil.
So I think we should be sectioned into three ways, Zil bad, Zil good, none of the above.That way the Dead have plenty of choice.

I think that might be better. After all, in the very unlikely event that Morsul was a wolf, I'm not sure knowing it would help us all that much, since he had no real connection to anyone.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Based on the rules, I'm assuming we will find out who received the empowerment vote at the end of each Day regardless of whether that empowerment vote actually has an impact on the lynch. Am I correct on this?

Yes, empowerment is cheesily obvious regardless on if it has any sort of impact on the outcome.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

That is because the ideas that I have are based on two assumptions - one is that the Wizards cannot continue making roles once they are in the Dead Thread.

Correct. Their role creating abilities cease when they enter the Dead Thread.

The other is that a win for wolves and EW is the same as it is in an ordinary game, ie live wolves have to outnumber live villagers.
Are both my assumptions correct?

Equal to or outnumber.

[Boromir88]

Agree with only 3 groups, Zil was innocent, Zil was wolf, none of the above.

And moving forward agree with Nerwen that we should only ask the dead to check the lynchees (unless in the event of a hunter kill).

Knowing the lynchees alignment is in my opinion going to be more beneficial...and considering the delay of information the wolves might be bolder/aggressive in pursuing lynches than they would in a normal game where roles get revealed immediately.

Today is the one day the DL is going to suck for me. I may be able to return and vote, may not. Cheers.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Agree with only 3 groups, Zil was innocent, Zil was wolf, none of the above.

And moving forward agree with Nerwen that we should only ask the dead to check the lynchees (unless in the event of a hunter kill).

And hopefully we can have a visitor clear up any of the "none of the above" options we're left with in the future.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Well, that's why I was pushing so hard yesterDay for the village to agree to the plan (see the posts I quoted in my last post). If we'd all agreed on the Dead Thread voting for Inziladun, then him not self-voting would out him as a wolf anyway. That's why I was getting a bit frustrated yesterDay at people either ignoring the discussion, flat-out rejecting the idea, or saying we should wait until toDay to discuss it. And I suspect that while some of that was for practical/legitimate/non-evil reasons, there is at least one evil person hiding in that category.

You're right. It should've been discussed early yesterDay. I'm partially to blame as I should've taken the time to think about the Dead Thread more in the first half of the Day and grasp a better understanding of it (I finally did get a chance to peek at the Dead Thread of the last game with one to get a little better understanding of how it works...it wasn't until then I even realized the dead were allowed to post at Night). I didn't want to discuss the topic more at the end of yesterDay as I found that to be too much of a distraction when we needed to focus on who to lynch. I still stand by that.

Another option I can think of if we want to keep the list divided in two categories, is we can instruct the Dead Thread to use their empowerment vote toMorrow to communicate Inzil's role. The downside of that is we would be a Day behind on finding out roles if they already know Inzil's and toDay's empowerment vote would essentially have no meaning behind it.

Originally Posted by Eonwe

1. Everyone in the Dead Thread needs to be around around the deadline.
2. People would need to start voting earlier on the Living Thread so the Dead have time to discuss who is the best option out of those who have votes. I mean, I suppose they could agree to some kind of ranking, but I can imagine many ways in which that could get messed up.

And that is quite a problem. Because some people aren't ever able to be around at deadline and then there others who are only able to be active in the last few hours of the Day.

As for me, I can tell you that in most cases I am only able to be around during the first hours of the Day and then not again until the last hour or two.

On that note, I will be leaving for a day trip soon, though I should hopefully be back for the end of the Day. So I don't think I can add much more to the Dead Thread discussion toDay at least since once I return, I will need to focus on who to vote for.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So today's the day we could see the duel, eh? I had guessed that we would have been aware of a visitor by now.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Equal to or outnumber.

Another question for Kuru: If both wizards are still living, does 'equal to or outnumber' include the EW?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

On which note, a question for Kuru: Will it be clear from the narration whether someone is killed or is a Visitor Who Leaves?

I wouldn't indicate who was who, but there would be two people going into the Dead Thread at once (probably) so it should be fairly apparent something odd has happened.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Another question for Kuru: If both wizards are still living, does 'equal to or outnumber' include the EW?

Yes.

[Nerwen]

Talking of Morsul- if you want proof that the Dead are reading this thread pretty closely, check out his signature. It used to be "R.I.P. Morsul 07-12-2017. Cause of Death: Werewolf". Now it's "Is not Gollum, thank you very much", which is an obvious reference to this post of mine from yesterDay:

Since it is strictly against the rules for us to cite post counts from the Dead Thread, I will definitely not mention the fact that it has seventeen posts as of now in support of any theory that poor Morsul is just babbling away to himself in there à la Gollum.

Hit home, did it, Morsul?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That said, I think it is better to include the "none of the above/something else" option rather than the "they voted each other/they voted themselves" option, because does that really tell us anything?

It does, but on consideration I agree with everyone else here that it's better to keep the groups to choose from large, in case of someone failing to vote or sneaky group/category manipulation by someone who knows more than we do. Better to get some definite information now than no information, and hope that if things were complicated, the visitor will be able to tell us why.

On which note, a question for Kuru: Will it be clear from the narration whether someone is killed or is a Visitor Who Leaves?

[Lalaith]

she herself had a range of suspects, which she listed both Days.

Which is why I was putting forward the tentative theory that wolves might chose her as a potential Hunter who was unlikely to cause them harm.