Sauron's Great Miscalculation

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

The bias tends to obviate any likelihood that Sauron had any beneficent motivation. We know this is incorrect. His Orcs were sentients, and had will. He wanted to thrive, and had a parental relationship with them. And frankly, they were much better at coping with dust and impoverished environments than vain, conceited Elves, determined to make creepy artifacts in their own images, which is a nausea at times I have about how Elves make things. At times, I see Sauron's point about Galadriel, whose vanity had NO end (e.g. she was "UNfriends" with Feanor "FOREVER"), and that mirror was offensive. Anyhows, hahah that's for another topic, and no doubt it upsets Elf lovers.

I disagree with your assessment of Sauron's relationship with the orcs.

First, there is a wide range of possible interpretations about the level of sentience for the orcs, but operating from the assumption that they all had full sentience Sauron deserves no credit for this because he didn't make them, or at least was not the prime engineer in their creation.

Second, at best he regarded them as "useful servants." In the context of the expression of that very sentiment he didn't care if Shelob ate some of them. The Witch-king, and by extension Sauron himself, did not care how many of them were killed in the assault on Minas Tirith. He never seems to have gone to the bother to effectively equip and train the orcs. Saruman seems to have done a better job on that front.

Orcs may have been better able to exist on a more primitive and impoverished level than the Elves but Sauron never did anything to raise them above that status. They were trapped in miserable conditions in a brutal tribal society barely able to function at even the most basic level. Orcs functioned adequately enough, in Sauron's mind, for the purposes he desired and so he kept them trapped at that level. He didn't care about them. He certainly didn't have a parental attitude toward them.

As an aside, I would argue that orcs didn't function to a serviceable level at all. In the narrative we see the entire garrison of one significant border fortress exterminated and the remaining garrison of an even more significant border fortress seriously depleted all through a petty little tribal conflict over a single piece of loot.

It can hardly be overstated how "non-functional" this is in a military context...or indeed in any context.

I'm not convinced that in the event of Sauron's victory that he would have even kept orcs around. They were not good slaves. In the event of his dominance they would have served their purpose. He might well have extirpated them. He was always more interested in Men and Elves anyway. Orcs were just a tool for him to achieve domination over them.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

He never seems to have gone to the bother to effectively equip and train the orcs.

The essay on Orcs in Morgoth's Ring does mention "trained armies" of Sauron's Orcs: "the Orcs of his own trained armies were so completely under his will that they would sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his command." He also points out that "many were by training as tough as Dwarves in enduring hardship," which is interesting. I like the idea that Dwarves are the standard for endurance, and it's noteworthy that some Orcs were trained to comparable levels.

Also, when Frodo and Sam are with the Orcs in Mordor, the column collides with a "troop of heavy-armed uruks from Barad-dûr". I think you're right that Sauron didn't care about the Orcs, but at least some of them may have been better soldiers than we give them credit for. It seems to me that there were "lesser" Orcs used as "cannon fodder" as it were, but also better, tougher Orcs used as heavy shock troops, not elite in any sense by the standards of the Free Peoples, but strong and as professional as you could get in Mordor.

As you point out, however, the tendency of Orcs to fight amongst themselves if not wholly dominated by the will of a powerful Ainu seems to have been one of their most serious shortcomings as soldiers. The essay on Orcs even points out that Orcs "hated one another, and must be kept ever at war with some 'enemy' to prevent them from slaying one another." This certainly explains the incident at Cirith Ungol, in which idle Orcs on guard duty fall to violence amongst themselves. Also, Sauron's will was occupied elsewhere at the time, upon his forces in Gondor.

The essay on Orcs also mentions of Morgoth's armies that "orks who dwelt long under the immediate attention of his will - as garrisons of his strongholds or elements of armies trained for special purposes in his war-designs - would act like herds, obeying instantly, as if with one will, his commands even if ordered to sacrifice their lives in his service". In this manner, the "training" of Orcs might seem to involve and include a heavy dose of brainwashing, conditioning them to accept their Master's commands without hesitation.

As such I would argue that there probably were fairly well-trained and well-equipped Orc forces in Sauron's hosts, but that they still needed to be heavily monitored and centrally directed to prevent them from relapsing into their natural tendency to fight each other and cause chaos.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I disagree with your assessment of Sauron's relationship with the orcs.

First, there is a wide range of possible interpretations about the level of sentience for the orcs, but operating from the assumption that they all had full sentience Sauron deserves no credit for this because he didn't make them, or at least was not the prime engineer in their creation.

Second, at best he regarded them as "useful servants." In the context of the expression of that very sentiment he didn't care if Shelob ate some of them. The Witch-king, and by extension Sauron himself, did not care how many of them were killed in the assault on Minas Tirith. He never seems to have gone to the bother to effectively equip and train the orcs. Saruman seems to have done a better job on that front.

Orcs may have been better able to exist on a more primitive and impoverished level than the Elves but Sauron never did anything to raise them above that status. They were trapped in miserable conditions in a brutal tribal society barely able to function at even the most basic level. Orcs functioned adequately enough, in Sauron's mind, for the purposes he desired and so he kept them trapped at that level. He didn't care about them. He certainly didn't have a parental attitude toward them.

As an aside, I would argue that orcs didn't function to a serviceable level at all. In the narrative we see the entire garrison of one significant border fortress exterminated and the remaining garrison of an even more significant border fortress seriously depleted all through a petty little tribal conflict over a single piece of loot.

It can hardly be overstated how "non-functional" this is in a military context...or indeed in any context.

I'm not convinced that in the event of Sauron's victory that he would have even kept orcs around. They were not good slaves. In the event of his dominance they would have served their purpose. He might well have extirpated them. He was always more interested in Men and Elves anyway. Orcs were just a tool for him to achieve domination over them.

Servants or no, it implies a parental relationship. We don't know what secret affectations and affections Sauron had with his Orcs in hierarchies. Certainly, if Eru's manifestation of sentience was in Elvendom and Humanity, then Aule (craftsman) who 'created' the Dwarves was channeling the architect. Likewise, Morgoth and Sauron and Orcs same, same.

@Zigur,

Hi there Zigur, great to see you. Well trained and equipped to war craft is certainly probable. We might remember also they had craftsmanship capacity in appreciation of the beauty of hatreds and rages. Do you remember the Orc blade with the leering tongue during Merry's and Pippin's captivity.

@Reader

In a competing appreciation of Sauronic purpose, I wonder: did the Three and their preservation ideology, bely the Noldorin undercurrents of greed for Elevendom's preservation, by accelerating the Fading of Ea in Middle Earth.

Certainly, it seems that the three Elvish regions (Ost In Edhil, Imladris, Cirdan's Grey Havens) with a Ring each, were syphoning lifeforce and concentrating it into small territories. Forgive the reference to physics, but that seems very Entropic to me, and rather like turning a gas flame on your stove high, to boil a small area of water, while the rest of the home is providing the biosphere of support.

So, in my 'Sauronic-Beneficence' theory, Morgoth and Sauron were aware that Ea were ill crafted, and during the insurrection in the music, they were both obviously aware that Eru would prevail and so were volunteering themselves for a dire, labour or horrific burden, bearing the sacrifice of the Vanity of the Host, by pooling the 'bleeding' energy of Ea into a repetitive Song of Sustain.

Thus, in the Second Prophesy of Mandos, where Morgoth returns through the Doors of Night, this is the parable as read by the Eyes of Vanity WITHING the Middle Earthian biosphere. It's a Vanity Inversion and only Eru sees the unfolding of the illusion FROM the Void's Beyond, where obviously, Sauron, and Morgoth were not disconnected from Eru.

I wonder then, what Middle Earth would have been like without Balrogs, and Dragons and what role these mythological creatures played in their theory about Energetics.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

The essay on Orcs in Morgoth's Ring does mention "trained armies" of Sauron's Orcs: "the Orcs of his own trained armies were so completely under his will that they would sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his command." He also points out that "many were by training as tough as Dwarves in enduring hardship," which is interesting. I like the idea that Dwarves are the standard for endurance, and it's noteworthy that some Orcs were trained to comparable levels.

That's a good find, but I find it interesting that we don't seem to run into such orcs much in the stories.

I've re-read the sections on the Battle of the Pelennor from The Return of the King. Humans seem to have been Saruon's most effective troops in that battle. After the arrival of Aragorn the orcs are not referenced again, but rather the Easterlings and Haradrim are stated to have stayed and fought. Even before that point the Easterlings and Haradrim are referenced as antagonists more frequently than orcs. The orcs seem to have been primarily used for manual labor in digging siege lines and manning heavy artillery.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Servants or no, it implies a parental relationship.

There is nothing in the books that implies anything other than an exploitative relationship.

I'm quite curious as to what instances you can cite of Morgoth's or Sauron's genuine care for the welfare of their orcs.

We don't know what secret affectations and affections Sauron had with his Orcs in hierarchies.

Perhaps not, but I would like to see any reason to think that Morgoth's or Sauron's attitudes toward the orcs were anything other than what I laid out above. And by reason I mean citations from Tolkien's writings, not speculations or personal opinions.

were volunteering themselves for a dire, labour or horrific burden, bearing the sacrifice of the Vanity of the Host, by pooling the 'bleeding' energy of Ea into a repetitive Song of Sustain.

That is an interesting theory, but the text lays out Morgoth's motives and they don't support it.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

There is nothing in the books that implies anything other than an exploitative relationship.

I think Sauron's opinion of Orcs is well stated here:

And Orcs, they were useful slaves, but he had them in plenty. If now and then Shelob caught them to stay her appetite, she was welcome: he could spare them.

TTT Shelob's Lair

I doubt Sauron (or Morgoth) had any consideration of their servants, beyond their usefulness to him. Certain minions, such as the Nazgûl or the Mouth were favored with a high status in his hierarchy and, from the view of the Orcs, were seen as privileged, but Sauron would not have hesitated to sacrifice any of them if the stakes were high enough.

[Zigûr]

Both addressing Orcs and getting back to the topic

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

That's a good find, but I find it interesting that we don't seem to run into such orcs much in the stories.

I've re-read the sections on the Battle of the Pelennor from The Return of the King. Humans seem to have been Saruon's most effective troops in that battle. After the arrival of Aragorn the orcs are not referenced again, but rather the Easterlings and Haradrim are stated to have stayed and fought. Even before that point the Easterlings and Haradrim are referenced as antagonists more frequently than orcs. The orcs seem to have been primarily used for manual labor in digging siege lines and manning heavy artillery.

That's a good point. The main instance which comes to mind of successful assaults by heavier soldier-Orcs is that recorded in Appendix A:

In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath. Boromir son of Denethor (after whom Boromir of the Nine Walkers was later named) defeated them and regained Ithilien; but Osgiliath was finally ruined, and its great stone-bridge was broken.

The fact that they were defeated speaks against them; perhaps they were not deployed or commanded in a manner to complement their strength. Here I'm inclined again towards the concept of poor discipline and organisation. It's altogether likely, I suppose, that even Sauron's most robust soldiers were still used in simplistic wave-like attacks relying on numbers and, where possible, surprise, as 'swept across' somewhat implies.

If I might link this back to the topic, I wonder if this also implies another problem of Sauron's master-plan involving the One, as presumably with it in his possession he could have exerted his will more vigorously over his Orcs and perhaps used the strength of the special breed he had developed more effectively.