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Old 01-06-2017, 10:30 AM   #1
Kuruharan
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Boots Two things...

...one of them relatively narrow and slightly off the main path.

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Originally Posted by Mithadan View Post
I believe that even the lesser rings were never intended for Men or Dwarves. Sauron seized the Seven and the Nine, and possibly other lesser rings in the war upon Eregion.
I'd never really thought about that.

When you say "never intended" I assume the implication is "the elves never intended."

Why did the elves make so many rings, or perhaps, how did Sauron persuade them to make so many? I assume handing out the Seven and the Nine was always his intention. Or rather, did Sauron just make use of the number of rings that he was able to get his hands on? He handed out seven to the dwarves because there were seven dwarf houses and then the Nine were the ones left over from that.

Point Two:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
The inability of Evil to understand Good seems to be a common happening.
But neither is this conception inability unique. Tolkien represents Good as being unable to comprehend Evil as well. Manwe was unable to understand Melkor and the changes that had happened in Melkor, which is why Melkor got off so lightly with the Chaining.
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Old 01-06-2017, 04:53 PM   #2
Zigûr
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Making the Ring was certainly a mistake, but I think it's a mistake completely consistent with Sauron's character:
Gandalf describes Sauron's policies thus:
Quote:
he that strikes the first blow, if he strikes it hard enough, may need to strike no more
As we know Professor Tolkien also says the following:
Quote:
it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction
Given Sauron's nature, I think that such a "master plan", while certainly a miscalculation, was one he was practically bound to make, especially when coupled with his inability to comprehend the motives of good and altruistic people. This characteristic I think is another byproduct of his obsession with order, as his belief in the fundamental truth and logic of his own worldview made him incapable of believing that anyone could perceive the world differently.
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Old 01-06-2017, 09:04 PM   #3
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Tolkien played with the idea of Sauron's single-mindedness, his monomania, leading to his grand miscalculation. Tolkien pictured Sauron as a single, lidless eye who was blind to all else but the One Ring, In many ways, Sauron was just as addicted to the Ring as Gollum or any other ringbearer, intent upon its reacquisition, much to his own folly.
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Old 01-09-2017, 08:20 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuruharan View Post
Tolkien represents Good as being unable to comprehend Evil as well. Manwe was unable to understand Melkor and the changes that had happened in Melkor, which is why Melkor got off so lightly with the Chaining.
That's true. But Evil's blindness seems to be more consistent.

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Originally Posted by Morthoron View Post
Tolkien played with the idea of Sauron's single-mindedness, his monomania, leading to his grand miscalculation. Tolkien pictured Sauron as a single, lidless eye who was blind to all else but the One Ring, In many ways, Sauron was just as addicted to the Ring as Gollum or any other ringbearer, intent upon its reacquisition, much to his own folly.
I think that's something else Sauron didn't count on when hatching the rings plot: that he himself would be consumed by lust for his own One Ring. Why would that be so? The power and will it contained was his own. Was it turned into an external force when imparted into the Ring, independent of his own fea?
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Old 01-09-2017, 08:51 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
Was it turned into an external force when imparted into the Ring, independent of his own fea?
Thematically I would say yes. Within the logic of the narrative I would say that it probably had much the same effect upon him psychologically as other bearers.

I note this from "Myths Transformed" as well about Sauron's situation after the Ring's destruction:
Quote:
[Sauron] was said to have fallen below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered. What is probably meant is that a 'wicked' spirit becomes fixed in a certain desire or ambition, and if it cannot repent then this desire becomes virtually its whole being. But the desire may be wholly beyond the weakness it has fallen to, and it will then be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire, even to attend to itself. It will then remain for ever in impotent desire or memory of desire.
It seems to me that it was because the Ring was so crucial to Sauron's ambitions, especially after he lost it, that it became such an object of obsession. When he had it, he needed it, and when he lost it he desperately wanted it back. Perhaps that's the source of how the Ring engendered obsession in all of its bearers, because by its nature it was an object that was utterly essential to the fulfilment of its maker's fixations and to his survival; perhaps it influenced others in the same way because that was what it was: a thing essential to Sauron, and thus essential to anyone who bore it for any length of time.

The thought also occurs that the creation of the Ring was an inevitable mistake for Sauron because it was the technological implementation of his god complex; it gave him fake omniscience and omnipotence (over other Ring bearers) and allowed him to bestow counterfeit immortality upon his servants. He wanted to be a god and the Ring (and Rings) seem to have been quite an effective (if ultimately rather pathetic) way that he could pretend to be one.
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Old 01-09-2017, 09:26 AM   #6
Kuruharan
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Boots

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Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
That's true. But Evil's blindness seems to be more consistent.
Either that or the points in the stories where Good had the advantage and initiative where such insights matter more are fewer and further between.
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:43 AM   #7
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Sauron was also a victim of very mundane poor intelligence. After the Ford of Bruinen he lost track of the Ring and never got a good fix on it again, even though he came very close at times. At best he learned - days after the fact - that it had been at Sarn Gebir; and it would have been entirely natural for him to assume that it was headed for either Rohan or Gondor (especially after Pippin's fortuitous blunder on Dol Baran). Aragorn then had the wit and the will to reinforce this misconception.
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Old 03-21-2017, 07:55 PM   #8
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By "poor intelligence" I assume that you mean lack of strategic or military intelligence, i.e. where is the ring, as opposed to pure stupidity. Or maybe I am wrong.

The lack of "intelligence" relates to the efforts of Gandalf in concealing the path of the Ring, and, candidly, Sauron's failure to perceive that his opponents might seek to destroy the Ring rather than use it against him. So, perhaps, Sauron's "poor intelligence" was really a lack of understanding. The Ring was not being brought to Imladris to be wielded. It was not being brought to Lothlorien to be wielded. It was not being brought to Gondor or even Rohan to be wielded. it was not to be wielded at all, but rather destroyed.
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