Sauron's Great Miscalculation

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Elves, immune from greed?

Um, re-read The Silmarillion.

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I've re-read the sections on the Battle of the Pelennor from The Return of the King. Humans seem to have been Saruon's most effective troops in that battle. After the arrival of Aragorn the orcs are not referenced again, but rather the Easterlings and Haradrim are stated to have stayed and fought

I think in very great part that's because the Darkness broke at dawn, and the un-planned sunshine rendered the Orcs largely ineffective. Conversely, it aided Sauron's human troops (in unpublished notes he mentioned that the Darkness adversely affected them just like the Men of the West).

(FWIW, I think that PJ really blew the significance of the change from pitch-black to brilliant sunshine in that moment. But then he blew the 'cockcrow' moment generally, preferring Giant Samurai Trolls.)

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I think in very great part that's because the Darkness broke at dawn, and the un-planned sunshine rendered the Orcs largely ineffective. Conversely, it aided Sauron's human troops (in unpublished notes he mentioned that the Darkness adversely affected them just like the Men of the West).

Interesting, I don't recall reading that, or it didn't register.

It brings up the question again of what the Men who followed Sauron willingly made of the situation. Their god's actions and tactics had such a clearly detrimental impact on them and he made them fight alongside vile, monstrous creatures which it would be inescapable to understand that they were his primary grunt-work servants. What benefit did the Men of Darkness think they were getting out of this arrangement?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

It brings up the question again of what the Men who followed Sauron willingly made of the situation. Their god's actions and tactics had such a clearly detrimental impact on them and he made them fight alongside vile, monstrous creatures which it would be inescapable to understand that they were his primary grunt-work servants. What benefit did the Men of Darkness think they were getting out of this arrangement?

Well, the men of Rhûn and Harad had a history of war with Gondor. Sauron used that old hatred and probably promised them spoil and land, like Morgoth in the First Age.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, the men of Rhûn and Harad had a history of war with Gondor. Sauron used that old hatred and probably promised them spoil and land, like Morgoth in the First Age.

He almost certainly had; the reserves thrown into the fray by Gothmog of Morgul are said to have been mustered "for the sack of the City and the rape of Gondor".

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

It brings up the question again of what the Men who followed Sauron willingly made of the situation. Their god's actions and tactics had such a clearly detrimental impact on them and he made them fight alongside vile, monstrous creatures which it would be inescapable to understand that they were his primary grunt-work servants. What benefit did the Men of Darkness think they were getting out of this arrangement?

Perhaps they were acclimatised to Orcs, or not so far from Orcs themselves after living so long under the shadow. As for Sauron's tactics, I suspect the Men had little greater understanding than any other ignorant people threatened, manipulated or pressed into power for some distant tyrant. They probably did not realise they were being so poorly used, at least until it was too late.

It's worth noting that Sauron appears to have promoted himself as an angry, vengeful god, and only appeared benevolent even to his followers early on. In the Second Age, for the Men of his empire "Sauron was both king and god; and they feared him exceedingly, for he surrounded his abode with fire." The Drowning of Anadûnê also states that "well-seeming he was at first, and just, and his rule was of benefit to all men in the needs of body. For he made them rich, whoso would serve him; but those who would not he drove out into the waste places." Thus I suspect the actions of the Men of Darkness were driven by religious terror as well as greed for the spoils of Gondor.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Perhaps they were acclimatised to Orcs, or not so far from Orcs themselves after living so long under the shadow.

Which brings us back to the recent orc integration thread.

They probably did not realise they were being so poorly used, at least until it was too late.

One would think that they might notice the detrimental impact the darkness in the lead up to the battle was having on them.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

One would think that they might notice the detrimental impact the darkness in the lead up to the battle was having on them.

Perhaps a 'god works in mysterious ways' explanation?

Did they even know that their 'god' was personally directing their campaign against Gondor?

One thing I think this raises is the issue of how the Men of Darkness conceived of their 'god'. Did they think of their 'god' as a person who lived at the top of the tower in the Dark Land, or as some more nebulous force, or as something else entirely?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Did they even know that their 'god' was personally directing their campaign against Gondor?

I would think so. They were submitting themselves to the overall leadership of Mordor, and traditions of their peoples would recall, I would surmise, personal appearances by Sauron in their lands long before.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

One thing I think this raises is the issue of how the Men of Darkness conceived of their 'god'. Did they think of their 'god' as a person who lived at the top of the tower in the Dark Land, or as some more nebulous force, or as something else entirely?

I think by the time of the Third Age Sauron was The Red Eye: an abstract, remote power that could not be denied, and would reward those who aided it.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Interesting, I don't recall reading that, or it didn't register.

It brings up the question again of what the Men who followed Sauron willingly made of the situation. Their god's actions and tactics had such a clearly detrimental impact on them and he made them fight alongside vile, monstrous creatures which it would be inescapable to understand that they were his primary grunt-work servants. What benefit did the Men of Darkness think they were getting out of this arrangement?

I've often pondered that as well. We know that the Mouth of Sauron spoke of Tribute and spared from death by tithing wealth and annexing lands to Sauron. So, I see an 'appeal to survival' in a vanity of conceit of Overlord as one motivation.

But more to the point, about Sauronic Will, and one point on what we are told by Tolkien about Men being more easily swayed by Melkor/Morgoth/Shadow than the Firstborn.

Seems to be a parable about the promises of greed, coveting, seduction and power, but, by the time you are face to face with Sauron, and 'it's too late to look back', then fear and horror are implied in 'bad decision'.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Seems to be a parable about the promises of greed, coveting, seduction and power, but, by the time you are face to face with Sauron, and 'it's too late to look back', then fear and horror are implied in 'bad decision'.

Can't disagree with you there.