New evidence for the Arkenstone-Silmaril case

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Devium

I had read the many (many) posts on the subject in this thread, however, one poster would try say "yes, volcanos can be conical" and then another poster would rebut with "no, what about this example" and point to a shield volcano. I had not read anyone definitively state why certain volcanos could be conical an some wouldn't be. I do agree with the second part of your statement though in that it is far more likely to have formed in the volcano than it is that a Silmaril made its way thousands of miles using only the geologic cycle. However, two unanswered issues do arise:

1. It is never stated which fiery chasm Maedhros jumped into. It could have been in Beleriand or it could have been further east.
2. What process would cause a singular, unique gem to form with its own inner light in the magma chamber of a volcano? Just about every other artifact in Tolkien's universe was crafted by supreme skill or sorcery.




I feel odd arguing for my comical, hair brained theory, but here we go
If the Arkenstone is an early attempt by Fëanor that was tossed out, specifically one that wasn't quite indestructible, once the dwarves found it, they could just cut it to whatever shape they desired whether it was previously cut or not. So there ya go.




I apologize. I may have pulled the "divine right" phrase from the movies which I didn't mean to. However, if I'm not mistaken, Thorin has claim to it as the king in the line of Durin. The Arkenstone is an heirloom of the ruling line of Durin's Folk. So naturally, whomever dwarf possesses it is the King of Durin's folk. That's more what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.

As an aside, it sure seems like PJ is building the Arkenstone up to be a Silmaril based on comments made by Thranduil thus far in the first two movies...

post.

Was it you upstream or elsewhere where I read the really interesting stuff about Volcanism?

I reckon Balrogs can travel through lava flows, actually. So - after Beleriand sank-ed, who knows, where Maedhros ended up. We know he fell into a chasm or some such "the earth" nigh the water, and it's been so long since I read it, I can't quite remember exactly where.

Just recall seeing a really awesome Ted Nasmith of Maedhros hearling the Silmaril. I'll fetch it shortly.

[Taking a Liberty]Thence, after the sinking of Beleriand, much lava burst forth from the ruin of that great battle, as the swords of flame of Elves of Eldamar were hurled forth, in a great chorus of Elvish song, as the lands sank, so also Maedhros's*** resting place was consumed by great lava of heats.

Thence, that Balrod, who contrived in some long time in the future, to devour the Seven Fathers in Moria, did submerge himself in the great heats of lava, and so, escaped the Sinking of Beleriand.

Thence, as Fate would chance it, he happened to spy the glowing Silaril in the great subterannean lava flows and he grabbed the Holy Jewell. It burned the Balrog so very greatly, and so hotly, yet he bore it many a year, as he sojourned, lost in the deeps of the lava flows.

Thrice thence, over-thenced, or in accordance with Ring Lore of the Three-thence, thrice-ly thenced, and were it but for the Silmaril, he would have not have been UNlost (and not UNgoliant-ed). For so did he surface after such a journey in Erebor, and yet, could not bear the touch of the SIlmaril ever again. And so, in anguish, he hurled the gem into the bowels of Lonely Mountain, before making his way, overland to Moria in the stealth of night, and by the distractions allowed by Sauron, in the fifty years he was in Morder, in 1600 SA, (plus or minus 100 years or so as I can't quite remember off hand) during the forging of The One.

And so - coordinated his assault with Sauron upon the Dwarves when the Ring Spell was uttered--and Thrice-ly Thence, the Third - Celebrimbor TH-eard woops, I mean H-eard only the Ash Nazg thingy...not the Balrog thrice thing.[/Liberty]

***Canon-ITE-Warning - Informed Consent hahahaha

[Ivriniel]

*M*A*G*L*O*R* throws the Simaril

[Nerwen]

This will never end, will it?

Now. I just got angrily neg-repped for a post I made here *two years ago*, so I think this could be a good time to remind everyone not to get *too* emotionally invested in the subject.

Cool picture, Ivrin!

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Now. I just got angrily neg-repped for a post I made here *two years ago*, so I think this could be a good time to remind everyone not to get *too* emotionally in the subject.

Would you have complained if someone gave you a positive rep for a two year-old post? Sometimes, I get a positive and negative rep for the same post. There's no pleasing everyone.

[IxnaY AintsaY]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Would you have complained if someone gave you a positive rep for a two year-old post? Sometimes, I get a positive and negative rep for the same post. There's no pleasing everyone.

Maybe that was me. Sometimes I give positive and negative rep to the same post. In my head.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Would you have complained if someone gave you a positive rep for a two year-old post? Sometimes, I get a positive and negative rep for the same post. There's no pleasing everyone.

You don't understand, the Arkensil is serious business!

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

This will never end, will it?

Now. I just got angrily neg-repped for a post I made here *two years ago*, so I think this could be a good time to remind everyone not to get *too* emotionally invested in the subject.

Cool picture, Ivrin!

Thanx Nerwen

A little red square has come my way, of course as well over time here they're, I dunno, sometimes a 'badge of honour' and other times a 'thorn in my side'. But it's interesting what Morth<...>oron said about green and red for the same posts. Yes, there is no pleasing everyone.

This has been a very --hilarious-- thread to post at, and in fact, I thoroughly enjoyed the Arken-maril um, no, erm, the Silkenstone, um, not that!! The Sil-Ark-ril-enstonean ideas that have really assisted in my deepening of appreciation of Albatross ski trips with lava-resistant feathREs (c.f. spectREs), for flying thru subterranean lava conduits which.....morphed....the original Maedhros (woops, Maglis, um, no Maeghros's) Arkmeril that he hurled. That's how the dwarves found it.

[bin]

I realize I am several years late to the party at this point, but I was just now reading about the Silmarils and how some have posited that it is possible that the Arkenstone is one of them. I read this thread and went back to the Silmarillion and in my mind it seems possible, if improbable. However, in the world of fiction anything that is possible may happen if the author deems it, and without the word of Tolkien for or against the theory, I don't believe we can conclude either way that it is or isn't.

Obviously any evidence for the Arkenstone being one of the Silmarils is purely circumstantial: they are both shiny rocks that glow and hold sway over the wills of those around them. I am not here to discuss evidence that they are the same — simply to argue against the evidence to the contrary.

Two of the most common arguments that they must not be the same stone in this thread are as follows: Silmarils burn not only the hands of any evil being that holds them, but also any mortal; and that it is said the dwarves cut and refined the Arkenstone. Both are taken directly from the Silmarillion. However, upon further inspection, they are not the rock solid rebuttals they seem.

First, while it is indeed said upon the creation of the Silmarils that they will burn the hands of any mortal that holds them, however, later it is said that the stone "suffered [Beren's] touch and hurt him not". This clearly contradicts the account that Varda rendered them untouchable by morals, and leaves room for the possibility that the stone could have also been touched by the later mortals that came into contact with the Arkenstone without being burned.

As for the claim that the stone could not be cut and refined by the dwarves, in the passage describing the stone it says "Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.". First of all, we already know that adamant can be cut into a jewel due to the crafting of Nenya by the elves. Second, it says that violence cannot mar it, but by cutting facets it can be argued that far from impairing the Arkenstone, they refined the appearance. Finally, we know that it cannot be broken, but they Arkenstone still exists and its power remains intact, so this line of reasoning is unclear at best.

These are my responses to the most common issues with this idea. Let me know if there is anything glaring I have missed as this is my first post (if anyone will notice this on such and old thread).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by bin

I realize I am several years late to the party at this point, but I was just now reading about the Silmarils and how some have posited that it is possible that the Arkenstone is one of them. I read this thread and went back to the Silmarillion and in my mind it seems possible, if improbable. However, in the world of fiction anything that is possible may happen if the author deems it, and without the word of Tolkien for or against the theory, I don't believe we can conclude either way that it is or isn't.

First off, welcome to the Downs!

This question is, of course, open-ended, like the Balrog "wings" discussion, and the nature of Tom Bombadil.
In this thread many years ago, I conceded that it was technically possible for the Arkenstone to be a Silmaril, but highly unlikely.

The way that in The Silmarillion the Silmarils are grouped together when describing their fate, intimates that all were placed beyond the reach of the denizens of Arda.

And thus it came to pass that the Silmarils found their long homes: one in the airs if heaven, and one in the heart of the world, and one in the deep waters.

That has an air of finality.

Originally Posted by bin

First, while it is indeed said upon the creation of the Silmarils that they will burn the hands of any mortal that holds them, however, later it is said that the stone "suffered [Beren's] touch and hurt him not". This clearly contradicts the account that Varda rendered them untouchable by morals, and leaves room for the possibility that the stone could have also been touched by the later mortals that came into contact with the Arkenstone without being burned.

To that, I would argue that Beren was a very special case, meant (as Gandalf would say) to accomplish certain tasks. Melian noted that her power

shall not restrain him, for doom greater than my power shall send him.

He was "suffered" to touch the Silmaril, because the Directing Power wished it so.

Originally Posted by bin

As for the claim that the stone could not be cut and refined by the dwarves, in the passage describing the stone it says "Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.". First of all, we already know that adamant can be cut into a jewel due to the crafting of Nenya by the elves. Second, it says that violence cannot mar it, but by cutting facets it can be argued that far from impairing the Arkenstone, they refined the appearance. Finally, we know that it cannot be broken, but they Arkenstone still exists and its power remains intact, so this line of reasoning is unclear at best.

Well, all right. The question I have, though, (aside from how the stone could have made its way to Erebor to begin with) is why Dwarves would be been allowed to not only touch, but alter a Silmaril. They clearly were a unique work, bound with high matters affecting the fate of the world. Why would one be fated to end up in a relatively insignificant place, at one time sharing space with a dragon?

[bin]

First of all, I am shocked at how quickly you responded after this thread being dead for so long.

I do acknowledge that there is definitely a suggestion that each of the three Silmarils will remain in their respective elements until they are recovered before the end of days. In my eyes, as the Arkenstone never passed beyond the hands of the dwarves, only passed between their halls, and was ultimately reinterred in the earth it can possibly be seen to not have been recovered, but moved — as long as the stone lies within the halls or hands of the dwarves, it belongs to the earth. As we do not know what comes to pass at the end, it is even possible that this movement was necessary for the future recovery of the stones in the first place, much like how Sméagol/Gollum was needed for the recovery and destruction of the ring. This could also explain why the dwarves were allowed to possess the stone despite their arguable unworthiness.

Your argument that Beren was the exception, not the rule is certainly a possibility. However, as far as I can tell (I may have missed something), there are no instances of any of the Silmarils burning someone simply because they are mortal. The two stones taken by Malgor and Maedhros both burned their new owners, but it is made clear that the reason for this is their evil, not because they are mortal. It is even said that "[Maedhros'] right thereto had become void", speaking of his right to the stone. This implies that the brothers would have possibly had a valid claim and right to the stones but for their evil actions. To me, this, and the lack of any being burned purely because of their mortality is evidence enough to suggest that the initial description of the hallowing of the stones is inaccurate.