New evidence for the Arkenstone-Silmaril case

[Nerwen]

Welcome to the Downs, Devium!. And we're fine with long posts here.

Now for some quibbling:

- The Lonely Mountain being a volcano - Many people have claimed volcanos can't be conical with a pointy peak.

-Gem can't form in volcanos- plenty of crystallization forms in magma chambers and is then pushed to the surface in eruptions. Some examples are diamonds and obsidian. Furthermore, there are enough heat and pressure in there that many metals such as gold and silver can be refined. Who knows, maybe even mithril .

Unless I've skipped over something, two people made the first claim and one person the second; both statements were contradicted by other posters. So I wouldn't say that's "many". Anyway, the problem with the "Arkensil" case is that it uses vulcanism as a sort of "handwave" to explain away all the discrepancies between Arkenstone and Silmaril ("it floated all the way from Beleriand", "they weren't really cutting it, they were scraping off the crust" etc). Meanwhile, of course, it completely ignores the rather greater probability of the jewel having formed in said volcano naturally.

Which brings me to your theory (yes I realise you're not serious, but let's pretend). Now, it does avoid the "Arkensil" problem of *distance*, but still requires that the dwarves, despite being master craftsmen, be unable to recognise a cut stone when they see one. Which I just don't think will *do*, sorry.

Finally- I haven't read "The Hobbit" for quite a while, but is all that about the Arkenstone "bestowing the divine right to rule" actually in it? I thought it was just a movie thing.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Finally- I haven't read "The Hobbit" for quite a while, but is all that about the Arkenstone "bestowing the divine right to rule" actually in it? I thought it was just a movie thing.

It's definitely just a film thing. In the book the Arkenstone is a beautiful gem, but nothing more.

Personally I don't think Professor Tolkien would ever use such a hackneyed phrase, nor does it remotely fit with his own ethos. It's pretty lazy writing on the part of the filmmakers looking for a cheap MacGuffin, I would argue - a cliché that doesn't even fit because in the films (much like the non-Silmarillion books, really) there's no explicitly-defined concept of God or the divine, especially among Dwarves, which renders the phrase virtually nonsensical. Surely the only person who really has a 'divine right to rule' in the books would be Manwë. Thorin can't just be after the stone because he's greedy, because that wouldn't fit with their profitable, cliché tragic hero motivation.

I digress.

In regards to all this Silmaril-Arkenstone business, don't we have enough evidence to perceive that the Dwarves were sufficiently mighty craftsmen to be able to unearth and shape such a stone themselves? It's not like the Noldor had a monopoly on beautiful and precious things in Arda.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

don't we have enough evidence to perceive that the Dwarves were sufficiently mighty craftsmen to be able to unearth and shape such a stone themselves? It's not like the Noldor had a monopoly on beautiful and precious things in Arda.

I present to you the Nauglamír.

Originally Posted by Silmarillion; Of the Return of the Noldor

It was a carcanet of gold, and set therein were gems uncounted from Valinor; but it had a power within it so that it rested lightly on its wearer as a strand of flax, and whatsoever neck it clasped it sat always with grace and loveliness.

And it becomes a dwarf/elf combo.

Originally Posted by Of the Ruin of Doriath

the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves were brought together and made one; and its beauty was very great, for now the countless jewels of the Nauglamír did reflect and cast abroad in marvelous hues the light of the Silmaril amidmost.

Then Dior wears it and it makes him very fair to behold.

Originally Posted by Of the Ruin of Doriath"

Then Dior arose, and about his neck he clasped the Nauglamír; and now he appeared as the fairest of all the children of the world , of threefold race: of the Edain, and of the Eldar, and of the Maiar of the Blessed Realm.

[Devium]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Unless I've skipped over something, two people made the first claim and one person the second; both statements were contradicted by other posters. So I wouldn't say that's "many". Anyway, the problem with the "Arkensil" case is that it uses vulcanism as a sort of "handwave" to explain away all the discrepancies between Arkenstone and Silmaril ("it floated all the way from Beleriand", "they weren't really cutting it, they were scraping off the crust" etc). Meanwhile, of course, it completely ignores the rather greater probability of the jewel having formed in said volcano naturally.

I had read the many (many) posts on the subject in this thread, however, one poster would try say "yes, volcanos can be conical" and then another poster would rebut with "no, what about this example" and point to a shield volcano. I had not read anyone definitively state why certain volcanos could be conical an some wouldn't be. I do agree with the second part of your statement though in that it is far more likely to have formed in the volcano than it is that a Silmaril made its way thousands of miles using only the geologic cycle. However, two unanswered issues do arise:

1. It is never stated which fiery chasm Maedhros jumped into. It could have been in Beleriand or it could have been further east.
2. What process would cause a singular, unique gem to form with its own inner light in the magma chamber of a volcano? Just about every other artifact in Tolkien's universe was crafted by supreme skill or sorcery.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Which brings me to your theory (yes I realise you're not serious, but let's pretend). Now, it does avoid the "Arkensil" problem of *distance*, but still requires that the dwarves, despite being master craftsmen, be unable to recognise a cut stone when they see one. Which I just don't think will *do*, sorry.

I feel odd arguing for my comical, hair brained theory, but here we go
If the Arkenstone is an early attempt by Fëanor that was tossed out, specifically one that wasn't quite indestructible, once the dwarves found it, they could just cut it to whatever shape they desired whether it was previously cut or not. So there ya go.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Finally- I haven't read "The Hobbit" for quite a while, but is all that about the Arkenstone "bestowing the divine right to rule" actually in it? I thought it was just a movie thing.

I apologize. I may have pulled the "divine right" phrase from the movies which I didn't mean to. However, if I'm not mistaken, Thorin has claim to it as the king in the line of Durin. The Arkenstone is an heirloom of the ruling line of Durin's Folk. So naturally, whomever dwarf possesses it is the King of Durin's folk. That's more what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.

As an aside, it sure seems like PJ is building the Arkenstone up to be a Silmaril based on comments made by Thranduil thus far in the first two movies...

[Tar-Jêx]

Most of the arguments for the Arkenstone=Silmaril are basically convenient scenarios or a different and obscure understanding of the text. I like to follow the text above all else.

If the Arkenstone was a Silmaril, and floated under the crust for a long time to eventually make its way into the Lonely Volcano (which I doubt is a volcano), it would take a very long time. Whilst a long time has passed, it seems illogical that this would actually happen.

For the carving on the stone, removing the stone off of a gem would be a formality, a common practice, so while the idea of removing the stone makes sense, it is a bit silly. Wouldn't dwarves want to clean all of their finds before cutting them and making them beautiful?

Seeing as how they found it in the mountain, and were said to cut it, this leads me to believe it was found in a similar fashion to diamond, just a big clump of it with no proper shape. Carving this stone into a shape would make sense.

If the Arkenstone was a Silmaril, many more parties would undoubtedly try to get their hands on it, especially the remaining Noldor. Thranduil would have recognized it, and Gandalf would have known, or feared, it was a Silmaril before the quest was begun.

I agree with the notion that if Tolkien had the chance to revise the Hobbit, he would potentially have more hints and inferences that the Arkenstone may be a Silmaril, or another stone of similar sort.

As it stands, I believe the Arkenstone to not be a Silmaril, but just a really pretty stone.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Devium

I had read the many (many) posts on the subject in this thread, however, one poster would try say "yes, volcanos can be conical" and then another poster would rebut with "no, what about this example" and point to a shield volcano. I had not read anyone definitively state why certain volcanos could be conical an some wouldn't be. I do agree with the second part of your statement though in that it is far more likely to have formed in the volcano than it is that a Silmaril made its way thousands of miles using only the geologic cycle. However, two unanswered issues do arise:

1. It is never stated which fiery chasm Maedhros jumped into. It could have been in Beleriand or it could have been further east.

Well, that brings the distance problem back in. Not as badly as the supposition that the thing somehow floated all the way by itself, but you think it would have been mentioned that Maedhros had chosen to go on such an extremely long trek prior to doing away with himself… I know! Maybe the Silmaril fell out of his pocket and was scooped up by an eagle. The bird of course intended to take it back to Valinor, but, overcome by lust for the jewel, flew off with it in the opposite direction– only to have the hallowed crystal burn its now-unclean talons, forcing it to drop it into the crater of the then-active Erebor. (The eagle, not daring to show its beak in Aman and, went off to skulk in some mountains somewhere and possibly became the progenitor of the Fell Beasts.) There! Problem solved!

2. What process would cause a singular, unique gem to form with its own inner light in the magma chamber of a volcano? Just about every other artifact in Tolkien's universe was crafted by supreme skill or sorcery.

I double-checked this, and the book is quite clear that the Arkenstone was *fashioned* by the dwarves. i.e. is a product of craft – it’s only on this thread that people seem to have decided they found it basically “as is”. Nonetheless the description does leave it open that its glowing is an inherent property of the stone itself (i.e. rather than the result of dwarven magic). However, I don’t see why that can’t be a freak of nature– after all Middle-earth possesses a metal, mithril, with special properties.

I feel odd arguing for my comical, hair brained theory, but here we go
If the Arkenstone is an early attempt by Fëanor that was tossed out, specifically one that wasn't quite indestructible, once the dwarves found it, they could just cut it to whatever shape they desired whether it was previously cut or not. So there ya go.

Ah, but my point is that they would know whether it was previously cut or not– again, these are supposed to be skilled craftsmen.

As an aside, it sure seems like PJ is building the Arkenstone up to be a Silmaril based on comments made by Thranduil thus far in the first two movies...

You may be right there. At any rate it’s certainly a bigger deal than it is in the book.

Originally Posted by Tar-Jêx

I agree with the notion that if Tolkien had the chance to revise the Hobbit, he would potentially have more hints and inferences that the Arkenstone may be a Silmaril, or another stone of similar sort.

But he had decades in which to do so and didn’t…

[Galin]

I double-checked this, and the book is quite clear that the Arkenstone was *fashioned* by the dwarves. i.e. is a product of craft – it's only on this thread that people seem to have decided they found it basically "as is". Nonetheless the description does leave it open that its glowing is an inherent property of the stone itself (i.e. rather than the result of dwarven magic). However, I don’t see why that can't be a freak of nature– after all Middle-earth possesses a metal, mithril, with special properties.

Yes! And as I may have added before in this thread, I think it's notable that the gem still shone with its inner light when it was the gift of Girion to the Dwarves (in payment for the arming of his sons), with no information as to how Girion got the gem in the first place:

'It was a great white gem, that shone of its own light within, and yet cut and fashioned by the Dwarves to whom Girion had given it, it caught and splintered...'

This is actual 'new' evidence, or at least something not known until the relatively recent The History of The Hobbit was released, and to my mind it illustrates that Tolkien had no great problem giving this property to a gem used to 'pay' for the arming of Girion's sons.

Of course some will, or might, say the Gem of Girion only 'evolved' into a Silmaril in any case, as it evolved in the making of the tale.

Not me but some

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Devium

I had read the many (many) posts on the subject in this thread, however, one poster would try say "yes, volcanos can be conical" and then another poster would rebut with "no, what about this example" and point to a shield volcano. I had not read anyone definitively state why certain volcanos could be conical an some wouldn't be. I do agree with the second part of your statement though in that it is far more likely to have formed in the volcano than it is that a Silmaril made its way thousands of miles using only the geologic cycle. However, two unanswered issues do arise:

1. It is never stated which fiery chasm Maedhros jumped into. It could have been in Beleriand or it could have been further east.
2. What process would cause a singular, unique gem to form with its own inner light in the magma chamber of a volcano? Just about every other artifact in Tolkien's universe was crafted by supreme skill or sorcery.




I feel odd arguing for my comical, hair brained theory, but here we go
If the Arkenstone is an early attempt by Fëanor that was tossed out, specifically one that wasn't quite indestructible, once the dwarves found it, they could just cut it to whatever shape they desired whether it was previously cut or not. So there ya go.




I apologize. I may have pulled the "divine right" phrase from the movies which I didn't mean to. However, if I'm not mistaken, Thorin has claim to it as the king in the line of Durin. The Arkenstone is an heirloom of the ruling line of Durin's Folk. So naturally, whomever dwarf possesses it is the King of Durin's folk. That's more what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.

As an aside, it sure seems like PJ is building the Arkenstone up to be a Silmaril based on comments made by Thranduil thus far in the first two movies...

post.

Was it you upstream or elsewhere where I read the really interesting stuff about Volcanism?

I reckon Balrogs can travel through lava flows, actually. So - after Beleriand sank-ed, who knows, where Maedhros ended up. We know he fell into a chasm or some such "the earth" nigh the water, and it's been so long since I read it, I can't quite remember exactly where.

Just recall seeing a really awesome Ted Nasmith of Maedhros hearling the Silmaril. I'll fetch it shortly.

[Taking a Liberty]Thence, after the sinking of Beleriand, much lava burst forth from the ruin of that great battle, as the swords of flame of Elves of Eldamar were hurled forth, in a great chorus of Elvish song, as the lands sank, so also Maedhros's*** resting place was consumed by great lava of heats.

Thence, that Balrod, who contrived in some long time in the future, to devour the Seven Fathers in Moria, did submerge himself in the great heats of lava, and so, escaped the Sinking of Beleriand.

Thence, as Fate would chance it, he happened to spy the glowing Silaril in the great subterannean lava flows and he grabbed the Holy Jewell. It burned the Balrog so very greatly, and so hotly, yet he bore it many a year, as he sojourned, lost in the deeps of the lava flows.

Thrice thence, over-thenced, or in accordance with Ring Lore of the Three-thence, thrice-ly thenced, and were it but for the Silmaril, he would have not have been UNlost (and not UNgoliant-ed). For so did he surface after such a journey in Erebor, and yet, could not bear the touch of the SIlmaril ever again. And so, in anguish, he hurled the gem into the bowels of Lonely Mountain, before making his way, overland to Moria in the stealth of night, and by the distractions allowed by Sauron, in the fifty years he was in Morder, in 1600 SA, (plus or minus 100 years or so as I can't quite remember off hand) during the forging of The One.

And so - coordinated his assault with Sauron upon the Dwarves when the Ring Spell was uttered--and Thrice-ly Thence, the Third - Celebrimbor TH-eard woops, I mean H-eard only the Ash Nazg thingy...not the Balrog thrice thing.[/Liberty]

***Canon-ITE-Warning - Informed Consent hahahaha

[Ivriniel]

*M*A*G*L*O*R* throws the Simaril

[Nerwen]

This will never end, will it?

Now. I just got angrily neg-repped for a post I made here *two years ago*, so I think this could be a good time to remind everyone not to get *too* emotionally invested in the subject.

Cool picture, Ivrin!

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Now. I just got angrily neg-repped for a post I made here *two years ago*, so I think this could be a good time to remind everyone not to get *too* emotionally in the subject.

Would you have complained if someone gave you a positive rep for a two year-old post? Sometimes, I get a positive and negative rep for the same post. There's no pleasing everyone.

[IxnaY AintsaY]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Would you have complained if someone gave you a positive rep for a two year-old post? Sometimes, I get a positive and negative rep for the same post. There's no pleasing everyone.

Maybe that was me. Sometimes I give positive and negative rep to the same post. In my head.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Would you have complained if someone gave you a positive rep for a two year-old post? Sometimes, I get a positive and negative rep for the same post. There's no pleasing everyone.

You don't understand, the Arkensil is serious business!

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

This will never end, will it?

Now. I just got angrily neg-repped for a post I made here *two years ago*, so I think this could be a good time to remind everyone not to get *too* emotionally invested in the subject.

Cool picture, Ivrin!

Thanx Nerwen

A little red square has come my way, of course as well over time here they're, I dunno, sometimes a 'badge of honour' and other times a 'thorn in my side'. But it's interesting what Morth<...>oron said about green and red for the same posts. Yes, there is no pleasing everyone.

This has been a very --hilarious-- thread to post at, and in fact, I thoroughly enjoyed the Arken-maril um, no, erm, the Silkenstone, um, not that!! The Sil-Ark-ril-enstonean ideas that have really assisted in my deepening of appreciation of Albatross ski trips with lava-resistant feathREs (c.f. spectREs), for flying thru subterranean lava conduits which.....morphed....the original Maedhros (woops, Maglis, um, no Maeghros's) Arkmeril that he hurled. That's how the dwarves found it.

[bin]

I realize I am several years late to the party at this point, but I was just now reading about the Silmarils and how some have posited that it is possible that the Arkenstone is one of them. I read this thread and went back to the Silmarillion and in my mind it seems possible, if improbable. However, in the world of fiction anything that is possible may happen if the author deems it, and without the word of Tolkien for or against the theory, I don't believe we can conclude either way that it is or isn't.

Obviously any evidence for the Arkenstone being one of the Silmarils is purely circumstantial: they are both shiny rocks that glow and hold sway over the wills of those around them. I am not here to discuss evidence that they are the same — simply to argue against the evidence to the contrary.

Two of the most common arguments that they must not be the same stone in this thread are as follows: Silmarils burn not only the hands of any evil being that holds them, but also any mortal; and that it is said the dwarves cut and refined the Arkenstone. Both are taken directly from the Silmarillion. However, upon further inspection, they are not the rock solid rebuttals they seem.

First, while it is indeed said upon the creation of the Silmarils that they will burn the hands of any mortal that holds them, however, later it is said that the stone "suffered [Beren's] touch and hurt him not". This clearly contradicts the account that Varda rendered them untouchable by morals, and leaves room for the possibility that the stone could have also been touched by the later mortals that came into contact with the Arkenstone without being burned.

As for the claim that the stone could not be cut and refined by the dwarves, in the passage describing the stone it says "Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.". First of all, we already know that adamant can be cut into a jewel due to the crafting of Nenya by the elves. Second, it says that violence cannot mar it, but by cutting facets it can be argued that far from impairing the Arkenstone, they refined the appearance. Finally, we know that it cannot be broken, but they Arkenstone still exists and its power remains intact, so this line of reasoning is unclear at best.

These are my responses to the most common issues with this idea. Let me know if there is anything glaring I have missed as this is my first post (if anyone will notice this on such and old thread).