New evidence for the Arkenstone-Silmaril case

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

The Arkenstone was already seen as the rightful property of the Dwarves (except for Bilbo's claim to take it as his "rightful" payment for coming on the quest). Even if it "were" a Silmaril (which I don't believe), Gandalf wouldn't have popped in and said "The Sil's are the rightful property of the Valar" (they never were in the first place) "so I'm going to take this from you and deliver it". Fate (Providence, if you wish) had already placed the Arkenstone where it was, and the Dwarves had unearthed and shaped it on their own. The Valar would have respected that.

While the Silmarils weren't the responsibility of Gandalf or any of the Istari, I don't think it likely Gandalf would have allowed one to remain at Erebor.
Look at all the mischief they caused in the First Age. They seem to have engendered a lustful desire to possess them almost on the level of the One. Even old Elwë couldn't resist the lure.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

While the Silmarils weren't the responsibility of Gandalf or any of the Istari, I don't think it likely Gandalf would have allowed one to remain at Erebor.
Look at all the mischief they caused in the First Age. They seem to have engendered a lustful desire to possess them almost on the level of the One. Even old Elwë couldn't resist the lure.

But then if he tried to take it - if it was a Silmaril - imagine the consequences. I don't think this argument works against the Silmaril case, because, personally, I think Gandalf decided that a tomb and a secret were better for a Silmaril than:

-everyone knowing what it is
-even if not, suspicion from those involved in the story
-where would he then place it? Carry it around with him?
-how long before Sauron gets it, or at least news of it, and figures out it's a Silmaril?
-another war among Dwarves and Elves and Men
-No sense of finality to TH (no, this one's purely literary)


But that same note of finality has to keep the Silmarils where they belong: air/sky, water/sea, and fire/earth. Not involving themselves in politics of warring Dwarves and Elves.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But that same note of finality has to keep the Silmarils where they belong: air/sky, water/sea, and fire/earth. Not involving themselves in politics of warring Dwarves and Elves.

I don't hold it to mean much of anything, but do note two of the last options considered for handling the One Ring. One might take it on a ship, head out to sea, and cast it into the deeps, or one might toss it into a volcano.

[SofieVandepitte]

(This is actually my first post ever on this forum, oeh, exciting!)

During the past few days, I've been reading The Hobbit and immediately, the reference to the Silmarilis hit me, when reading Bilbo's description of the Arkenstone in Smaug's lair.

At first, I was inclined to believe it was indeed one of two lost Silmarils, but after thinking about it a while, it just doesn't fit with me. I don't truly like the idea of it.

First, I had this feeling the Silmarils should have a more, eh... grand role to play in the Ages after Melkor's defeat and the Fall of Thangorodrim. Don't get me wrong, I think Erebor's fate is important, but I don't think Tolkien would have let the Dwarves or Erebor find one of three most important jewels in the history of Arda. (Especially when you consider the rather nasty business between the Dwarves and Thingol.)

Plus, like some other people noted before, I don't think Tolkien would let the Silmaril be buried with Thorin. Again, this doesn't fit nicely to me.

But, alas, these first arguments are my pure opinion. I love to see Holy Jewels in Holy Places or deep in the fundaments of Arda, not in a Dwarf's resting place.

But to get more theoretical:

I always thought the Silmarils burned those who wanted to touch them with Bad Intentions (so, not bringing them back to Valinor).

Morgoth, the most powerful of the Ainur, suffered from immense pains whenever he tried to touch them. Of course, Thorin isn't as dark & evil as Morgoth, but he's a mere Dwarf, when Morgoth's a very powerful ex-Vala.

The sons of Fëanor, Maedhros & Maglor, suffered, too. They also couldn't touch the gems.

So, I ask you, dear discussion partners, how could Bilbo touch the Arkenstone, when considering it is a Silmaril? How could the Dwarves (eg. Thorin) of Erebor have touched it?

How was Smaug not hurt by it? I don't have my copy of the Sil right now, but I do remember Silmarils haven't got soothing effects on dragons.

The gems are hallowed by Varda, I don't think that sort of enchantment wears off after spending some time in Arda and then being spewn out by a vulcano. That sort of magic is permanent, just like Valar in themselves are. Just like the Two Trees should have been, if Melkor hadn't destroyed them.

And then, if we choose to ignore the rather tedious touching-part, wouldn't it be kind of... weird of Gandalf in the first place to just let the Arkenstone be buried next to Thorin, if he knew it to be one of the Holy Gems? I know the Valar can't do anything with two of the three Sils, they need all three of them, but still, I think it rather obvious that they would've wanted the gem to be secured in Aman, instead of a Dwarf's grave.

Especially because Sauron is establishing his Dark Power once more in Middle-Earth. Manwë is very much aware of that; he sent the Istari to protect the peoples of ME against Sauron in the first place.

And if Sauron suddenly realized that Erebor holds a Silmaril, one of the gems that lead to the downfall of his Master before him, that the Valar crave for, I think he would've done everything in his power to steal it from Thorin's grave. I don't even want to think about what Sauron would've been capable of, if he owned a Silmaril.

Gandalf knows this all, so, to me, it would be, bluntly put, idiotic to leave such a power in Erebor, no matter what.

Plus, there is another person present who knows what a Silmaril looks like: Thranduil. I doubt the elf-king of the Woodland Realm would appreciate the knowledge of one of the Sils being buried with a Dwarf, Thorin Oakenshield of all people.

So, next to gut-feeling, I don't agree with the notion of the Arkenstone being one of the mighty Silmarils.

(I hope I was a bit useful.)

[Mithalwen]

Good points Sofie, welcome to the Downs.

[Nerwen]

Welcome to the Downs, Sofie!

Quibbling for quibbling sake here: the deal with the Silmarils isn’t precisely that they burn "those who wanted to touch them with Bad Intentions (so, not bringing them back to Valinor)”; neither does it have anything to do with how powerful someone is– it’s this:

“no mortal flesh, nor hands unclean, nor anything of evil will might touch them, but it was scorched and withered,"

That is, the reason this “Arkensil" should have burned Bilbo and Thorin is simply that they’re both mortal. (It should, however, indeed have burned Smaug on moral grounds.)

[Devium]

Let me first say that ever since I found and subsequently devoured every word a 1st edition copy of The Silmarillion in a box of old books in our basement as a 15 year old, I have longed to be able to converse about the intricacies and mysteries of Middle-earth history with someone without them looking at me like I was crazy. So I'm glad I found this site.

As for the Arkenstone=Silmaril debate, here are some of my thoughts on the theories put forth in this thread:

- The Lonely Mountain being a volcano - Many people have claimed at volcanos can't be conical with a pointy peak. This is not true at all. There are three types of volcanos, Cinder Cones, Composite Volcanos, and Shield Volcanos. The make up an appearance of these are quite different from each other based entirely on the type of eruptions that form them. Shield volcanos are not conical at all and are formed entirely by continuous lava seepage and cooling (think parts of Hawaii). There is very little pressure release in this type of volcanic eruption due to the proximity of the magma chambers to the earths surface, therefore there isn't very much ash or particulates released into the atmosphere. But the other two types, Cinder Cones and Composite volcanos, are characterized by violent eruptions due to the pressure and magma having to breaking through dense rock covering the magma chambers. This causes lots of particulate and ash to be flung into the atmosphere and settle along the slopes. Over many eruptions and coupled with lava flows, this causes a very conical mountain to rise. Then, as the volcano goes dormant, the ash and particulate weather faster that the solid, cooled magma lining the central vent, giving the appearance of a chimney at the top. So it is very much is possible for the Lonely Mountain to be a volcano.

-Gems can't form in volcanos- plenty of crystallization forms in magma chambers and is then pushed to the surface in eruptions. Some examples are diamonds and obsidian. Furthermore, there are enough heat and pressure in there that many metals such as gold and silver can be refined. Who knows, maybe even mithril .

My overall thinking after spending the better part of the past two evenings reading through all these theories and looking back at the books is that I am almost certain the Arkenstone as it stands in the Hobbit is not a Silmaril. Too many characters would have recognized it as such. Galadriel (Fëanors niece), Gandalf and Thranduil to name a few. Galadriel may have been content to leave it be considering her experience with the pain it caused. I doubt Gandalf would try to take it seeing as he generally takes a hands off approach when it comes to influencing the destiny of middle earth, preferring to assist and observe rather than take direct action himself. Thranduil's reaction could range anywhere from strong desire (he may not have seen it in the past, but would surely know what a Silmaril should look like) to outright lust to get from the dwarves. Certainly though, if it was a Silmaril, it wouldn't be regarded with the seeming apathy that it is from these three characters.

However, I have an inkling that had JRRT been given the opportunity to solidify, refine and publish his own version of the Silmarillion, the Arkenstone would have become a Silmaril. The Hobbit was published when JRRT was still formulating his Silmarillion mythos and as such he probably didn't have the Silmarils' qualities or fates set in stone (pun not necessarily intended). So the Arkenstone and the Silamarils could have grown out of the same place in his mind. I think had he been given more time to really distill his world into a cohesive canon, I have no doubt that is where the Arkenstone was heading.

But, as of now, let me introduce my own theory on the origin of the Arkenstone:

Fëanor, being the perfectionist he was, had to go through many inferior versions before he was able to create the three final Silmarils. One of those versions just wasn't quite indestructible, didn't have quite enough of the light of he trees, wasn't quite the right size for his tastes. So he threw it in the trash. Some Maia probably saw it, thought it would fetch a pretty penny, and hawked it to one of those rube Avarian elves still hanging out near lake Cuiviénen. Over the ages, it got lost among the markets and pawn shops of the Sindar until one Lorien elf dropped it on a weekend hiking trip and it fell into the caldera of the lonely mountain. Fast forward to the dwarves digging it up, naming it the Heart of the Mountain, and proclaiming that there is no other one like it. Thus, it becomes another example of the "little-man" syndrome that the dwarves harbor (passed down to them even from their very creation by Aulë) in their relationship with the elves: Their great gem that bestows a divine right to rule is just a cheap knock off of the real deal.

Sorry for the long windedness and thanks for bearing with me.