Obscure Tolkien Characters

[Arvegil145]

The Rodrim was the name of the inhabitants of Nargothrond in "Turamba and the Fealoke" that as before Nargothrond itself had a name.

Good catch. But the name of the inhabitants of Nargothrond was rodothlim as far as I can remember.

On the other hand, Tolkien did change, for example, Gondothlim to Gondolindrim, and since the Lays postdate the Lost Tales, it could be that he changed Rodothlim to Rodrim (like Gondothlim to Gondolindrim)

Originally Posted by Orphalesion

Nan is mentioned in Christopher Tolkien's commentary to the Tale of Beren and Luthien in the Book of Lost Tales. He is described as a "summer giant" in the shape of an elm.

Could Nan and Gilim be ents? (though I'm not really sure that an ent would need a sword (Glend))

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Problem there is that the LTs' primitive "caves of the Rodothlim" evolved in the Turin poem into the great fortress of Nargothrond, a new conception with a new name; Rodothlim or variants thereof disappeared. I would use Nargothrim.

(the element (g)rod (from *groto "cave, tunnel") survived into late Sindarin, as in Nogrod and Menegroth, but I doubt generic "cave-dwellers" would have been applied to Finrod's folk).

[Morthoron]

I think Halbarad got a bad break. One of those characters you'd wish to know more about.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I think Halbarad got a bad break. One of those characters you'd wish to know more about.

Certainly. Halbarad was to me one of the most valiant and obscure characters in the LOTR. Strange that he was never mentioned in The Song of the Mounds of Mundburg".

Additionally, the savior of the world receives little to no mention - Borondir - The Rider of Last Hope - without him Sauron would have surely prevailed.


Tal-Elmar is an interesting character too, as well as Borlas and Saelon in "The New Shadow"

Bladorthin I don't have to even mentioned.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Most likely Tolkien simply replaced the early collective-plural ending -thlim with -rim, -drim (*rimbe, 'host, folk'). The latter of course is very familiar: Rohirrim, Onodrim, Haradrim etc etc.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Most likely Tolkien simply replaced the early collective-plural ending -thlim with -rim, -drim (*rimbe, 'host, folk'). The latter of course is very familiar: Rohirrim, Onodrim, Haradrim etc etc.

Yes, indeed, -(d)rim was a relatively late change in the context of a group of people.

I'm not sure when did he introduce that change, but in any case the Lays are from the twenties (later than BoLT). It might be that at that time he introduce the change, though I have to look on the texts to be sure.

[Arvegil145]

Another thing crossed my mind.

Who are the Ythlings from Aelfwine of England in The Book of Lost Tales: Part II

They have always puzzled me!

Where are they: the Azores, Madeira, Jan Mayen, Iceland, Bermuda, somewhere inside the confines of the Guarded Realm???

More importantly: WHO THE HELL are they? Men, Elves, Dwarves, Ainur, something else...Hobbits? I can't wrap my mind to it.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Problem there is that the LTs' primitive "caves of the Rodothlim" evolved in the Turin poem into the great fortress of Nargothrond, a new conception with a new name; Rodothlim or variants thereof disappeared. I would use Nargothrim.

(the element (g)rod (from *groto "cave, tunnel") survived into late Sindarin, as in Nogrod and Menegroth, but I doubt generic "cave-dwellers" would have been applied to Finrod's folk).

I think you misunderstood my point. I was replying to the previous post which said that the name "Rodrim" applies to the inhabitants of Nargothrond (in the earlier stages of writing). I simply corrected the mistake.

But while we're at it - the names "Rodothlim" and "Rodrim" bear a remarkable similarity - one would even think that the name "Rodrim" replaced that of "Rodothlim" at that stage of the writing (or maybe Tolkien was playing with the idea, although I've found no mention of any of the names in the "whetting spell" of Beleg, as CT remarks also).

Again - I noticed the similarity between "gondothLIM" and "rodothLIM" AND "gondolindRIM" and "rodRIM" - last parts of the names indicate belonging to a certain place, city, region, etc.

There is one more thing:

and the glaive of Gaurin whose gleaming stroke
did rive the rocks of Rodrim's hall;

This passages strikes me in one peculiar way: Rodrim's halls. Admittedly Rodrim COULD simply be a character, BUT...It could also refer to a people as a hole.




P.S. Well, I don't want to sound as a narcissistic buffoon, but who ever knows about Ogbar, Celeg Aithorn, Torhir Ifant, etc. I think one could safely (relatively) assume that he's head is buried under a pile of Tolkien related books.

[Orphalesion]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Good catch. But the name of the inhabitants of Nargothrond was rodothlim as far as I can remember.

On the other hand, Tolkien did change, for example, Gondothlim to Gondolindrim, and since the Lays postdate the Lost Tales, it could be that he changed Rodothlim to Rodrim (like Gondothlim to Gondolindrim)


Could Nan and Gilim be ents? (though I'm not really sure that an ent would need a sword (Glend))

You are right! I recited from memory and got it a bit wrong, still it could be a temporary name for the people of Nargothrond...or even for the dwarves?

Id oubt Nan and Gilim are Ents. The Ents were only invented when Tolkien wrote the LOTR. That's why I wrote proto-Ents and even here I made a little mistake. I miss-remembered Earendil meeting "tree people" and "Nan the summer giant who is like an elm" as Earendil meeting "tree giants and Nan, who is like an elm"
So Earendil met Tree People, not Tree Giants

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Another thing: may hap Ogbar, Saithnar, Nargil, Rodrim and Gaurin are the names of PLACES instead of characters?

True! We should like open a thread in Middle Earth mirth were we brainstorm theories about these names and how to fit them into the later mythology.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Orphalesion

You are right! I recited from memory and got it a bit wrong, still it could be a temporary name for the people of Nargothrond...or even for the dwarves?

Id oubt Nan and Gilim are Ents. The Ents were only invented when Tolkien wrote the LOTR. That's why I wrote proto-Ents and even here I made a little mistake. I miss-remembered Earendil meeting "tree people" and "Nan the summer giant who is like an elm" as Earendil meeting "tree giants and Nan, who is like an elm"
So Earendil met Tree People, not Tree Giants




True! We should like open a thread in Middle Earth mirth were we brainstorm theories about these names and how to fit them into the later mythology.

I realize that the Ents are a later concept, but I was simply trying to weld earlier ideas with the later ones.


And besides, we are already brainstorming theories here.