Obscure Tolkien Characters

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Hello!

I have recently been rereading HoME, and two passages from The Lays of Beleriand caught my attention. First one, from The Lay of the Children of Húrin:

"There wondrous wove he words of sharpness,
and the names of knives and Gnomish blades
he uttered o'er it: even Ogbar's spear
and the glaive of Gaurin whose gleaming stroke
did rive the rocks of Rodrim's hall;
the sword of Saithnar, and the silver blades
of the enchanted children of chains forgéd
in their deep dungeon; the dirk of Nargil,
the knife of the North in Nogrod smithied;
the sweeping sickle of the slashing tempest,
the lambent lightning's leaping falchion
even Celeg Aithorn that shall cleave the world."


And the second one, from The Lay of Leithian:

"...of steel and torment. Names she sought,
and sang of Glend the sword of Nan;
of Gilim the giant of Eruman;
and last and longest..."


Does anyone have any idea of what be those names: Ogbar, Nargil, Gaurin, Rodrim, Saithnar, Celeg Aithorn, Glend, Nan, Gilim?

I mean, what are your thoughts on who these characters and items might be? Are they simply random names Tolkien created without any substance, or do you think there might be more to them?

I am aware that the names of the giants Gilim and Nan might be more metaphorical, in that they are representations of winter and summer respectively. But Ogbar, Nargil, etc. I simply cannot shoehorn into any specific category of races, peoples, items, ...

Any thoughts?

The names are unfamiliar to me, but I love the obscure ones, more as I age. Gilmith and Ivriniel are two of my favourites, and I often wonder whether there were other Half Elves, unnamed in the works.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

The names are unfamiliar to me, but I love the obscure ones, more as I age. Gilmith and Ivriniel are two of my favourites, and I often wonder whether there were other Half Elves, unnamed in the works.

I was vaguely familiar with Ivriniel (due to her dad clearly having an obsession with Finduilas Faelivrin of Nargothrond), but had to look up Gilmith... I'll bounce over to the Imrazor thread to discuss her, but I agree that her case suggests that there almost must have been other half-elven couples. You can point at Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril, Aragorn and Arwen as all Fated, but there's nothing that makes a part-Elvish Dol Amroth line important to the fate of the world. The case of Aegnor and Andreth shows that the desire certainly existed on both sides - and it would be silly to imagine that all of the Eldar were as cowardly as Aegnor...

hS

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I was vaguely familiar with Ivriniel (due to her dad clearly having an obsession with Finduilas Faelivrin of Nargothrond), but had to look up Gilmith... I'll bounce over to the Imrazor thread to discuss her, but I agree that her case suggests that there almost must have been other half-elven couples. You can point at Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril, Aragorn and Arwen as all Fated, but there's nothing that makes a part-Elvish Dol Amroth line important to the fate of the world. The case of Aegnor and Andreth shows that the desire certainly existed on both sides - and it would be silly to imagine that all of the Eldar were as cowardly as Aegnor...

hS

tell us more about Aegnor and Andreth.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

tell us more about Aegnor and Andreth.

Boy howdy, would I love to!

So there's a beautiful document in HoME X: Morgoth's Ring called the 'Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth', or often just the Athrabeth. The title means 'The Debate of Finrod and Andreth', and it's exactly what it says on the tin: a discussion between Finrod, King of Nargothrond, and Andreth, wise-woman of House Beor (she's Beren's great-aunt). They talk about a lot of things: Andreth shares a story from House Marach which claims the Secondborn weren't meant to die, Finrod talks about his vision of Arda Remade, and they discuss a mortal legend which sounds suspiciously like Jesus (poetically named the Old Hope). It's a wonderful example of Tolkien running through the philosophy of his Legendarium, and is one of the few finished pieces not published in one of the non-HoME books.

They also talk about Andreth's relationship with Aegnor, Finrod's younger brother. It turns somewhat into a discussion of the differing natures of their kindreds, but running through it is (I think) some of the most heartbreaking romantic writing Tolkien ever did. There's no way I can do it justice except to quote it at length:

Originally Posted by Athrabeth

'I have not asked for comfort,' said Andreth. 'For what do I need it?'

'For the doom of Men that has touched thee as a woman,' said Finrod. 'Dost thou think that I do not know? Is he not my brother dearly loved? Aegnor: Aikanár, the Sharp-flame, swift and eager. And not long are the years since you first met, and your hands touched in this darkness. Yet then thou wert a maiden, brave and eager, in the morning upon the high hills of Dorthonion.'

'Say on!' said Andreth. 'Say: who art now but a wise-woman, alone, and age that shall not touch him has already set winter's grey in thy hair! But say not "thou" to me, for so he once did!'
[...]
'Speak of neither to me!' said Andreth. 'I desire neither. I was young and I looked on his flame, and now I am old and lost. He was young and his flame leaped towards me, but he turned away, and he is young still. Do candles pity moths?'

'Or moths candles, when the wind blows them out?' said Finrod. 'Adaneth, I tell thee, Aikanár the Sharp-flame loved thee. For thy sake now he will never take the hand of any bride of his own kindred, but live alone to the end, remembering the morning in the hills of Dorthonion. But too soon in the North wind his flame will go out! Foresight is given to the Eldar in many things not far off, though seldom of joy, and I say to thee thou shalt live long in the order of your kind, and he will go forth before thee and he will not wish to return.'

Then Andreth stood up and stretched her hands to the fire. 'Then why did he turn away? Why leave me while I had still a few good years to spend?'

'Alas!' said Finrod. 'I fear the truth will not satisfy thee. [...] This is time of war, Andreth, and in such days the Elves do not wed or bear child; but prepare for death—or for flight. [...]'

'For one year, one day, of the flame I would have given all: kin, youth, and hope itself: adaneth as I am,' said Andreth.

'That he knew,' said Finrod; 'and he withdrew and did not grasp what lay to his hand: elda as he is. For such barters are paid for in anguish that cannot be guessed, until it comes, and in ignorance rather than in courage the Eldar judge that they are made.

'Nay, adaneth, if any marriage can be between our kindred and thine, then it shall be for some high purpose of Doom. Brief it will be and hard at the end. Yea, the least cruel fate that could befall would be that death should soon end it.'

'But the end is always cruel—for Men,' said Andreth. 'I would not have troubled him, when my short youth was spent. I would not have hobbled as a hag after his bright feet, when I could no longer run beside him!'

'Maybe not,' said Finrod. 'So you feel now. But do you think of him? He would not have run before thee. He would have stayed at thy side to uphold thee. Then pity thou wouldst have had in every hour, pity inescapable. He would not have thee so shamed.

'Andreth adaneth, the life and love of the Eldar dwells much in memory; and we (if not ye) would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end. Now he will ever remember thee in the sun of morning, and that last evening by the water of Aeluin in which he saw thy face mirrored with a star caught in thy hair —ever, until the North-wind brings the night of his flame. Yea, and after that, sitting in the House of Mandos in the Halls of Awaiting until the end of Arda.'

'And what shall I remember?' said she. 'And when I go, to what halls shall I come? To a darkness in which even the memory of the sharp flame shall be quenched? Even the memory of rejection. That at least.'

Finrod sighed and stood up. 'The Eldar have no healing words for such thoughts, adaneth,' he said. 'But would you wish that Elves and Men had never met? Is the light of the flame, which otherwise you would never have seen, of no worth even now? You believe yourself scorned? Put away at least that thought, which comes out of the Darkness, and then our
speech together will not have been wholly in vain. Farewell!'

Darkness fell in the room. He took her hand in the light of the fire. 'Whither go you?' she said.

'North away,' he said: 'to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defense—that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes.'

'Will he be there, bright and tall, and the wind in his hair? Tell him. Tell him not to be reckless. Not to seek danger beyond need!'

'I will tell him,' said Finrod. 'But I might as well tell thee not to weep. He is a warrior, Andreth, and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt.

'But you are not for Arda. Whither you go may you find light. Await us there, my brother—and me.'

Was Aegnor a coward? Finrod would have us believe not, but his story changes from 'there is a war on, you know' to 'he didn't want to shame you by his pity'; I think the truth is that Aegnor was scared, and ran, and was too cowardly to go back.

What's interesting about this story is that it not only serves as an opposite of Beren and Luthien's relationship (where their fates ended up not sundered) - it also serves as a mirror to the likes of Aldarion and Erendis. Here, though Andreth is bitter, she also still loves Aegnor with all her heart - and every indication is that he still loves her, too. The other failed relationships in Tolkien came about because one party hated the other, or at least grew weary of them; this is one of the few which was broken entirely by the Marring.

And... I love Finrod's closing blessing. Unlike the claims of all the major religions of our day - including most emphatically Tolkien's own Catholicism - he doesn't know what awaits Andreth, and so he offers that beautiful benediction: "You are not for Arda. Whither you go - may you find light."

hS

[Ivriniel]

they're fantastic things to read. I found the comments about making children most interesting. I always saw the Second Born as having been Gifted with Death. I wonder, than from the comment if that was in anticipation of the Second Making, and given the Marring of Arda.

I don't have the book you cite, but I've heard it's an authoritative tome. I have to get the Fall of Gondolin as well.

Cheers, and thanks
Ivriniel

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I always saw the Second Born as having been Gifted with Death. I wonder, than from the comment if that was in anticipation of the Second Making, and given the Marring of Arda.

Finrod agrees with you. He's very clear that Andreth and her people are dead wrong in their idea that they suffer from death because either Melkor or Iluvatar inflicted it on them as punishment. He explains the whole Gift of Men idea - but Andreth doesn't really buy it.

I've often recommended Morgoth's Ring as the best of the History books to get, and the presence of the Athrabeth is one of the reasons why. (The other is LaCE - the Laws and Customs of the Eldar.)

hS