Dagor Dagorath/Turin returning? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

William Cloud Hicklin · 10-16-2013, 09:00 AM

IIRC, in that passage Turin was said "to be numbered with the sons of the Valar." This is problematical in a couple of ways, starting with the fact that Tolkien definitively rejected "children of the Valar" and converted them to Maiar; but also that "numbered among" isn't quite the same as "is."

It's obviously impossible to fit Turin slaying Ancalagon the Black into the narrative.
Surely not *impossible*; one could suppose for instance that Turin was in Vingelot with Earendil, possibly even doing the fighting while Earendil drove the boat in a sort of Trojan War charioteer/spearman arrangement. Perhaps a not unfitting pairing, given that both fellows had non-standard relationships to the Doom of Men.

jallanite · 10-16-2013, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

IIRC, in that passage Turin was said "to be numbered with the sons of the Valar." This is problematical in a couple of ways, starting with the fact that Tolkien definitively rejected "children of the Valar" and converted them to Maiar; but also that "numbered among" isn't quite the same as "is."

So then it is obvious to imagine that Tolkien could have intended to change “to be numbered with the sons of the Valar” to “to be numbered with the Maiar”, if he intended to include the return of Túrin at all. That is hardly a problem.

Quote:

Surely not *impossible*; one could suppose for instance that Turin was in Vingelot with Earendil, possibly even doing the fighting while Earendil drove the boat in a sort of Trojan War charioteer/spearman arrangement. Perhaps a not unfitting pairing, given that both fellows had non-standard relationships to the Doom of Men.

Or that possibly Tolkien, who in other passages imagined Túrin coming back to life not in the battle at the end of the First Age but in the Last Battle, may also imagine Ancalagon restored to life.

William Cloud Hicklin · 10-17-2013, 09:48 AM

Of course, the REAL reality is that the War of Wrath narrative was quite old and unrevised, but CT had to use it because there was nothing newer; and while he naturally changed Fionwe > Eonwe etc. to fit later conceptions, the ultimate doom of Turin was too vague to justify ret-conning something in

10-16-2013, 09:00 AM	#1
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	IIRC, in that passage Turin was said "to be numbered with the sons of the Valar." This is problematical in a couple of ways, starting with the fact that Tolkien definitively rejected "children of the Valar" and converted them to Maiar; but also that "numbered among" isn't quite the same as "is." It's obviously impossible to fit Turin slaying Ancalagon the Black into the narrative. Surely not impossible; one could suppose for instance that Turin was in Vingelot with Earendil, possibly even doing the fighting while Earendil drove the boat in a sort of Trojan War charioteer/spearman arrangement. Perhaps a not unfitting pairing, given that both fellows had non-standard relationships to the Doom of Men. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

10-17-2013, 09:48 AM	#3
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Of course, the REAL reality is that the War of Wrath narrative was quite old and unrevised, but CT had to use it because there was nothing newer; and while he naturally changed Fionwe > Eonwe etc. to fit later conceptions, the ultimate doom of Turin was too vague to justify ret-conning something in __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.