Dagor Dagorath/Turin returning?

[Aiwendil]

When you add in the very late reference from the essay on Istari, then it does appear there was some vague final battle in Tolkien's mind, but the details of how this was to be known to the world was vague.

Note that, per the discussion above, that reference is not as late as I thought.

[Galadriel55]

I personally think that Turin should be the one to deal Morgoth his death blow. As cellurdur said, his tale it so tragic, it makes sense (and poetic justice) that Turin should be the one.

I am perfectly happy with Earendil defeating Ancalagon, though. I would not want Turin to take that part.

[elbenprincess]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I personally think that Turin should be the one to deal Morgoth his death blow. As cellurdur said, his tale it so tragic, it makes sense (and poetic justice) that Turin should be the one.

I am perfectly happy with Earendil defeating Ancalagon, though. I would not want Turin to take that part.

I have no problems with Turin dealing with Melkor, I just don´t like the idea of him being or becoming a Valar and that he seemingly does after fighting Morgoth.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

I have no problems with Turin dealing with Melkor, I just don´t like the idea of him being or becoming a Valar and that he seemingly does after fighting Morgoth.

I don't think I like that idea either. Firstly, from the more scientific perspective, you can't turn an apple into an orange. You can't make a man, born in the middle of the FA, into a Vala who created the world. Turin's Valarishness would have been only half-true (ie he could have the power and be granted eternal life, but not the historical/past part). And secondly, because the story needs closure, not a happily-ever-after. When Turin avenges his family, I personally think that he would consider himself fully free of this world, and, having no more purpose in it (as well as finding this satisfaction of achieving the purpose - inner peace?), he would not linger in it.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

he would consider himself fully free of this world, and, having no more purpose in it (as well as finding this satisfaction of achieving the purpose - inner peace?), he would not linger in it.

Welllll, technically, the Dagorath comes at the end of the world - so after it there is no more world to linger IN --- for anyone!

As for the actual changing of the nature of a being (edain to ainu), if that were actually contemplated by Tolkien (in the final story version), I think that could ONLY be accomplished by Eru, and that "IF" (a big "if") Eru chose in his wisdom to do so, he (and he alone) COULD do so.
Whether that would make for a satisfying storyline is a different question.

One part of the matter that intrigues me (i.e. of the story line where Turin "does" come back and slay Morgoth) is that Morgoth, in cursing Hurin's line and following Turin with such ferocity, was then actually training and raising up the tool of his own destruction. Building in Turin such a resolve that his Fea refused to leave Arda and remained in Mandos for the rest of Time - UNTIL the Dagorath and the coming of the end "when Melkor should return".
Oh the Irony!!

Morgoth, you would have been better off yourself had you left Turin alone and let him live out his life unmolested.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I don't think I like that idea either. Firstly, from the more scientific perspective, you can't turn an apple into an orange. You can't make a man, born in the middle of the FA, into a Vala who created the world. Turin's Valarishness would have been only half-true (ie he could have the power and be granted eternal life, but not the historical/past part).

I don't quite understand your point... Elves born in the second age did not take part in the deeds of earlier ages, but are no less elven because of it?

Tulkas entered Arda latter than the other Valar, but he is still one of them.

[Formendacil]

While the "apples can't turn into oranges" argument has merit, it doesn't actually work in Middle-earth because at least one orange turns into an apple (Lúthien's spirit acquires the Doom of Men), one apple turns into an orange (Tuor acquires the Doom of the Elves) and a few are Schrodinger's Fruits--Eärendil, Elwing, Elrond, Elros, Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen.

So within the rules of Arda, fruit can change its species in certain extraordinary circumstances--and I think we can all agree that the Dagor Dagorath is an extraordinary circumstance.

Obviously, there's still a distinction between being counted as a different type of Eruhin and being counted as a Vala, but there's another angle to consider. The Valar, after all, are all Ainur. In "species" they are no different from the Ainur who remained with Eru or the lesser Ainur known as the Maiar. The question then is whether the essential fact of being a Vala their species of spirit to be Ainu or whether it is solely due to power or authority they exercise, irrespective of species--note, after all, that Melkor was once considered one of the Valar, but lost his "title," one might say, when he turned evil.

[Hoogathy Adanedhel]

This is an issue that fascinates me as a long-time reader of Tolkien and as a fan of Túrin's story. In a way I feel Túrin's tale is somewhat incomplete without knowing that he, of all the Eldar and Edain, has the honour of slaying Morgoth in the end. Unfortunately Tolkien did not leave us with a final version of the Dagor Dagorath, for I'd love to see how it would have ended up in a polished form, perhaps at the end of The Slmarillion.

As far as the issue of Túrin's apotheosis goes, I would say that since it was an element in the earliest version but subsequently dropped from all others suggests that we can discredit it as a simple curious piece of trivia.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Note that, per the discussion above, that reference is not as late as I thought.

Yeh I just flicked through and it seems the essay is from 1954.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Yeh I just flicked through and it seems the essay is from 1954.

The mentions of Dagor Dagorath, though, are not from the 1954 essay; neither are they from the 1972 notes. They are associated with the narrative of the choosing of the Istari, for which, as far as I can see, CT doesn't even hazard a guess as to the date. It certainly seems to me that it is probably later than the 1954 essay, especially given that in that essay it is said that the names of the 'other two' were unknown, while in the narrative of the choosing they are named. But even so, 1954-1972 is a pretty broad range.

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

I just don´t like the idea of him being or becoming a Valar and that he seemingly does after fighting Morgoth.

Well, in the 1937 QS he kills Morgoth but does not become a Vala.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

The mentions of Dagor Dagorath, though, are not from the 1954 essay; neither are they from the 1972 notes. They are associated with the narrative of the choosing of the Istari, for which, as far as I can see, CT doesn't even hazard a guess as to the date. It certainly seems to me that it is probably later than the 1954 essay, especially given that in that essay it is said that the names of the 'other two' were unknown, while in the narrative of the choosing they are named. But even so, 1954-1972 is a pretty broad range.

I have reread it more thoroughly and it seems we cannot pinpoint a date. I doubt it was in the 70s because Christopher Tolkien does not seem to believe the Second Prophecy of Mandos was retained.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Turin becoming a Valar seems a bit bizarre. They were the
equivalent of angelic spirits. To have a human become one
is rather "unChricstian" if you will, for Tolkien's pre-Christian
Christian theological worldview of Middle-earth.

I imagine he was just playing around with various scenarios,
as he was wont to do.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Turin becoming a Valar seems a bit bizarre. They were the
equivalent of angelic spirits. To have a human become one
is rather "unChricstian" if you will, for Tolkien's pre-Christian
Christian theological worldview of Middle-earth.

I imagine he was just playing around with various scenarios,
as he was wont to do.

Forgive me for being a little blasphemous (I am not Catholic, so I don't know if this argument would wash) But I can sort of see a twisty sort of way Tolkien could allow that without tecnically violating Christian dogma. As far as I remember, Catholocism recognized that non human heavenly beings can also double as saints (or why some of the patron saints are angels and archangels) and perform the functions thereof. And certianly Eurpoean folklore is rife with stories of saints being sent down to earth to basically fulfill the same functions as angles (to carry dircet messages from God, and to intercede in human affairs when God so wills). So in a certain sense, becoming a saint, from the point of view of the individual who it is happening to (laying aside the temportal canonization process) is basically a human spirit being raised up to stand equal with the angels. Thought of that way, there is no real contradiction. Turin commits and act of true holyness (killing Morgoth/Ancalagon i.e. permanently vanquishing a great/the greatest source of evil) and as a reward, is rasied up to stand with the Valar (i.e. the angels of ME). I admit the thing is a bit easier to explain in a pre Cristian light (for one thing, there aren't that many examples in Christianity of an individual being raised to such a level while alive (I can think of citing Elijah who tecnically is taken up into heaven while still alive, but it's an akward fit) but I don't see a direct contradiction.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Turin commits and act of true holyness (killing Morgoth/Ancalagon i.e. permanently vanquishing a great/the greatest source of evil) and as a reward, is rasied up to stand with the Valar (i.e. the angels of ME). I admit the thing is a bit easier to explain in a pre Cristian light (for one thing, there aren't that many examples in Christianity of an individual being raised to such a level while alive (I can think of citing Elijah who tecnically is taken up into heaven while still alive, but it's an akward fit) but I don't see a direct contradiction.

It was Eärendil who slew Ancalagon, not Túrin. The latter killed Glaurung.

At any rate, I don't see Túrin's act, heroic as it was, as "holiness". He did it because Glauring was coming for him, and would have killed all of Brethil in the process.

Bard the Bowman killed a dragon, and managed to do so without committing murder on a lame man afterwards. Does he get to be a Vala too?