Dagor Dagorath/Turin returning?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

I have no problems with Turin dealing with Melkor, I just don´t like the idea of him being or becoming a Valar and that he seemingly does after fighting Morgoth.

I don't think I like that idea either. Firstly, from the more scientific perspective, you can't turn an apple into an orange. You can't make a man, born in the middle of the FA, into a Vala who created the world. Turin's Valarishness would have been only half-true (ie he could have the power and be granted eternal life, but not the historical/past part). And secondly, because the story needs closure, not a happily-ever-after. When Turin avenges his family, I personally think that he would consider himself fully free of this world, and, having no more purpose in it (as well as finding this satisfaction of achieving the purpose - inner peace?), he would not linger in it.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

he would consider himself fully free of this world, and, having no more purpose in it (as well as finding this satisfaction of achieving the purpose - inner peace?), he would not linger in it.

Welllll, technically, the Dagorath comes at the end of the world - so after it there is no more world to linger IN --- for anyone!

As for the actual changing of the nature of a being (edain to ainu), if that were actually contemplated by Tolkien (in the final story version), I think that could ONLY be accomplished by Eru, and that "IF" (a big "if") Eru chose in his wisdom to do so, he (and he alone) COULD do so.
Whether that would make for a satisfying storyline is a different question.

One part of the matter that intrigues me (i.e. of the story line where Turin "does" come back and slay Morgoth) is that Morgoth, in cursing Hurin's line and following Turin with such ferocity, was then actually training and raising up the tool of his own destruction. Building in Turin such a resolve that his Fea refused to leave Arda and remained in Mandos for the rest of Time - UNTIL the Dagorath and the coming of the end "when Melkor should return".
Oh the Irony!!

Morgoth, you would have been better off yourself had you left Turin alone and let him live out his life unmolested.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I don't think I like that idea either. Firstly, from the more scientific perspective, you can't turn an apple into an orange. You can't make a man, born in the middle of the FA, into a Vala who created the world. Turin's Valarishness would have been only half-true (ie he could have the power and be granted eternal life, but not the historical/past part).

I don't quite understand your point... Elves born in the second age did not take part in the deeds of earlier ages, but are no less elven because of it?

Tulkas entered Arda latter than the other Valar, but he is still one of them.

[Formendacil]

While the "apples can't turn into oranges" argument has merit, it doesn't actually work in Middle-earth because at least one orange turns into an apple (Lúthien's spirit acquires the Doom of Men), one apple turns into an orange (Tuor acquires the Doom of the Elves) and a few are Schrodinger's Fruits--Eärendil, Elwing, Elrond, Elros, Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen.

So within the rules of Arda, fruit can change its species in certain extraordinary circumstances--and I think we can all agree that the Dagor Dagorath is an extraordinary circumstance.

Obviously, there's still a distinction between being counted as a different type of Eruhin and being counted as a Vala, but there's another angle to consider. The Valar, after all, are all Ainur. In "species" they are no different from the Ainur who remained with Eru or the lesser Ainur known as the Maiar. The question then is whether the essential fact of being a Vala their species of spirit to be Ainu or whether it is solely due to power or authority they exercise, irrespective of species--note, after all, that Melkor was once considered one of the Valar, but lost his "title," one might say, when he turned evil.

[Hoogathy Adanedhel]

This is an issue that fascinates me as a long-time reader of Tolkien and as a fan of Túrin's story. In a way I feel Túrin's tale is somewhat incomplete without knowing that he, of all the Eldar and Edain, has the honour of slaying Morgoth in the end. Unfortunately Tolkien did not leave us with a final version of the Dagor Dagorath, for I'd love to see how it would have ended up in a polished form, perhaps at the end of The Slmarillion.

As far as the issue of Túrin's apotheosis goes, I would say that since it was an element in the earliest version but subsequently dropped from all others suggests that we can discredit it as a simple curious piece of trivia.