Why was Boromir allowed to join the Fellowship?

[Nogrod]

Coming back to the original question I think you could also see it from the POV of the prof and what he was intending (aka. not only discuss it inside the logic of the story and the psychology of the characters).

It's easy to see that including Boromir is a smart move as it brings interesting tensions, conflicting loyalties, social and personal struggles etc. to the fellowship (and of course opening up the POV of the men of Minas Tirith to the whole mess) - great dramatic possibilities open up to the storyteller by adding a character like Boromir. And the prof really used those possibilities to the max.

But possibly even more importantly, I think, adding Boromir (and what he does) adds also to the general idea, or worldview, that things happen by a sort of providence where every act has it's role. Frodo would not have gone alone hadn't Boromir tried to take the ring - and with Aragorn, Gimli and maybe others with him the trip to Mordor would have been different and the Ring probably would not have been destroyed. Like with Gollum being still alive in the end securing the Ring gets destroyed as Frodo couldn't have done it - or Gandalf falling in Moria without which the two aforementioned things probably wouldn't have happened, Merry & Pip being taken captives and ending up in Fangorn pushing the ents into war with Saruman and thus enabling Rohan to join the fight at the Pelennor fields etc.

So even "bad" things serve a purpose.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally posted by Nogrod
I think, adding Boromir (and what he does) adds also to the general idea, or worldview, that things happen by a sort of providence where every act has it's role.

Which touches on the interesting dichotomy in ME between predestination/Iluvatar's will versus free will. For example, Frodo was "meant to have the Ring." But he could have refused it. And Isildur could have chosen to destroy the Ring (rather messing up the LOtR, but...

Gandalf says somewhere, I think, that he would not consider himself to have failed if even a (flower?) remains to eventually redeem ME from Sauron. There is free will, which can lead to failures against Morgoth, Sauron, etc. But eventually Eru will repair the situation. Or to quote the Silmarillion:

Then Iluvatar spoke, and he said: "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shall see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but my instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

Which really ticked off the bright boy in the class (Melkor).

[Andsigil]

I see Boromir's joining as fate, just as Judas Iscariot was allowed to join the Apostles (not that I want to equate Boromir with Judas, mind you- it's just a salient example to me). Boromir's purpose was to set certain things in motion.

[Calacirya]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I see Boromir's joining as fate, just as Judas Iscariot was allowed to join the Apostles (not that I want to equate Boromir with Judas, mind you- it's just a salient example to me). Boromir's purpose was to set certain things in motion.

I'm most prone to believe this, beyond all personal and strategic reasoning inside the fellowship and outside as well.

If Boromir had not been present, a domino effect would have occurred altering the fate of Middle Earth as we know it:

• The Fellowship would have eventually started to be tempted by the ring
• Frodo would not have encountered Gollum
• Fellowship would eventually fall apart
• The lust for the ring may drive Fellowship to kill Frodo
• Even if they don't, Frodo not meeting Gollum means that the ring would not be dropped into the Crack of Doom

Thus completely changing the story. Boromir's mere presence played a monumental part in this story. As Gandalf said when referring to Gollum that Gollum should not be killed because he may have some part to play yet, whether for good or evil, I believe the same happened with Boromir. I also believe there exists a distinct possibility that Elrond may have come to the same conclusion about Boromir that Gandalf had about Gollum.

[Pervinca Took]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

To be fair, Aragorn only states that he would have Legolas go with Boromir to Minas Tirith "if Legolas is not willing to leave us," by which I assume he would have been more or less fine with Legolas accompanying them to Mordor as well.

I always took his choice of Gimli as being due to the simple fact that he was a Dwarf and presumably the most likely of all of them to endure the hardships of Mordor - although as of course we've already discovered by this point Gimli is perhaps more delicate than might otherwise have been assumed: "Hard was my parting from Lothlórien."

I always thought Aragorn's choosing of Gimli was very similar to his choosing/acceptance of Sam, "who could not bear it otherwise," because Gimli had already said "It is clear to me that I cannot leave Frodo." Yes, Legolas immediately adds "And I too will go with him. It would be faithless now to say farewell," but that's purely about a sense of doing what's right ... not the same as saying "I cannot leave Frodo." I don't think it was quite in the sense that Sam couldn't, but to Gimli it would have gone against the stout loyalty of his nature, would have been an impossible choice for him to make. I think he felt deep respect for Frodo for what he had taken on and through what he and all the Fellowship had endured together, and felt a strong bond with him. Note his "Come with me, Frodo! I would not have you go without seeing Kheled-zaram." It's almost like "You've had a rotten day, you're doing a terrible job, and you're not missing out on seeing this." Also, he states his intentions before Legolas does, because he feels them more urgently. Not forgetting, of course, his earlier "Faithless is he who says farewell when the road darkens" - it was he and no-one else who had that conversation with Elrond just before they set out. I think that was due to his dwarvish nature - you endure a task and stick to it - but I believe there was also a bond of loyalty there, which deepened. Of course, he felt this to a high degree for all his companions, and that loyalty was switched to his other companions, once the choice was taken out of his hands and the Ring and Frodo had gone beyond their help (barring the help of diversion tactics).

Of course, Merry and Pippin want to accompany Frodo too, but Merry does admit that "we did not realize what that would mean." I think it's a combination of the "I cannot leave him" with Gimli's proven hardihood and battle prowess, added to the fact that in Sam Frodo already has a stout hobbit companion, whose loyalty to Frodo is perhaps fiercer than the "gentle loyalty" of Merry and Pippin that Gandalf later says they do not thankfully have to imagine being tested in the Dark Tower. Although anyone could and eventually probably break under torture, of course, even Sam.

I know this thread is about Boromir, but I thought this was an important point.

[Calacirya]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

I always thought Aragorn's choosing of Gimli was very similar to his choosing/acceptance of Sam, "who could not bear it otherwise," because Gimli had already said "It is clear to me that I cannot leave Frodo." Yes, Legolas immediately adds "And I too will go with him. It would be faithless now to say farewell," but that's purely about a sense of doing what's right ... not the same as saying "I cannot leave Frodo." I don't think it was quite in the sense that Sam couldn't, but to Gimli it would have gone against the stout loyalty of his nature, would have been an impossible choice for him to make. I think he felt deep respect for Frodo for what he had taken on and through what he and all the Fellowship had endured together, and felt a strong bond with him. Note his "Come with me, Frodo! I would not have you go without seeing Kheled-zaram." It's almost like "You've had a rotten day, you're doing a terrible job, and you're not missing out on seeing this." Also, he states his intentions before Legolas does, because he feels them more urgently. Not forgetting, of course, his earlier "Faithless is he who says farewell when the road darkens" - it was he and no-one else who had that conversation with Elrond just before they set out. I think that was due to his dwarvish nature - you endure a task and stick to it - but I believe there was also a bond of loyalty there, which deepened. Of course, he felt this for all his companions, and that loyalty was switched to his other companions, once the choice was taken out of his hands and the Ring and Frodo had gone beyond their help (barring the help of diversion tactics).

Of course, Merry and Pippin want to accompany Frodo too, but Merry does admit that "we did not realize what that would mean." I think it's a combination of the "I cannot leave him" with Gimli's proven hardihood and battle prowess, added to the fact that in Sam Frodo already has a stout hobbit companion, whose loyalty to Frodo is perhaps fiercer than the "gentle loyalty" of Merry and Pippin that Gandalf later says they do not thankfully have to imagine being tested in the Dark Tower. Although anyone could and eventually probably break under torture, of course, even Sam.

I know this thread is about Boromir, but I thought this was an important point.

Applying your logic (which is outstanding and very well thought out, by the way) what would you say the intentions for Boromir even WANTING to join the Fellowship would be? Where do you think his moral intentions lie? Any thoughts outside of what was explicitly was stated in Tolkien's works?

[Pervinca Took]

That's a difficult one. In the book, of course, the companions' decisions to accompany Frodo - with the exception of those of the hobbits - happen offstage. However, Aragorn states his intentions when they are gathered together - and says that, because he is going to Gondor, Boromir is coming with them too, and that he is "a valiant man." Plus Gandalf said earlier, "I think I shall come with you."

Boromir may have been proud, but he was also warmed by the idea of companionship in the wild, I think. And he had journeyed to Rivendell to find the answer to the riddle, and Aragorn was the one who answered it, producing the sword that was broken. In that sense, it was natural to travel back with the one who had answered it, rather than return alone, since the errand had been considered sufficiently important for a dangerous journey in the wild in the first place. Plus, his pride aside, "I did not come to beg any boon," he admitted that Gondor needed help - "For though I do not ask for help, we need it." He was learning from Aragorn, and he did care about his city. They were going to Minas Tirith together. He accepted Elrond's insistence that the Ring should be destroyed at the time. It was the collective decision of those he had ridden to see for advice and answers, and Aragorn shared it. And Gandalf, even if he did not have as close an affinity to Gandalf as did his brother, Faramir (although the perceived extent of that was possibly augmented by the jealousy of his father).

Of course, when the idea of abandoning the journey to Minas Tirith was posited, as the Quest of the Ring was more important, he became impatient and troubled. He was still going to Minas Tirith, as he had always said, but he had hoped for fellowship on the way, and the help of Aragorn. Otherwise, why had he waited for a month, and for the onset of winter, or even, perhaps, left his home in the first place? And he also felt an appropriate measure of loyalty to those he had journeyed with: "It is not the way of the men of Minas Tirith to desert their friends at need ... and you will need my strength, if ever you are to reach the Tindrock. To the tall isle I will go, but no further. There I shall turn to my home, alone if my help has not earned the reward of any companionship."

All that said, I wonder what Boromir did for the whole month they were at Rivendell before setting out. I suspect that he spent a lot of time with Aragorn. Would he have gone out on some of the scouting missions? And would he fully have understood that Aragorn was going to claim the kingship of Gondor?

It's never really occurred to me before, but why on earth did someone as important to Gondor as the Steward's eldest son set out to Rivendell alone, with no escort or at least without even one other companion? Sure, he was hardy and mighty, but "the mightiest man can be slain by one arrow," as Pippin observed. Did he insist upon setting out completely alone? (It might have been said that he did, and I don't remember).

One unrelated thing: when I checked a quotation I used in my last post, Merry's "we did not realize what that would mean," I noticed the American use of z in realize, in two different editions, but both in British publications.

BTW, a very warm welcome to the Downs, Calacirya.