Why was Boromir allowed to join the Fellowship?

[Andsigil]

I see Boromir's joining as fate, just as Judas Iscariot was allowed to join the Apostles (not that I want to equate Boromir with Judas, mind you- it's just a salient example to me). Boromir's purpose was to set certain things in motion.

[Calacirya]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I see Boromir's joining as fate, just as Judas Iscariot was allowed to join the Apostles (not that I want to equate Boromir with Judas, mind you- it's just a salient example to me). Boromir's purpose was to set certain things in motion.

I'm most prone to believe this, beyond all personal and strategic reasoning inside the fellowship and outside as well.

If Boromir had not been present, a domino effect would have occurred altering the fate of Middle Earth as we know it:

• The Fellowship would have eventually started to be tempted by the ring
• Frodo would not have encountered Gollum
• Fellowship would eventually fall apart
• The lust for the ring may drive Fellowship to kill Frodo
• Even if they don't, Frodo not meeting Gollum means that the ring would not be dropped into the Crack of Doom

Thus completely changing the story. Boromir's mere presence played a monumental part in this story. As Gandalf said when referring to Gollum that Gollum should not be killed because he may have some part to play yet, whether for good or evil, I believe the same happened with Boromir. I also believe there exists a distinct possibility that Elrond may have come to the same conclusion about Boromir that Gandalf had about Gollum.

[Pervinca Took]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

To be fair, Aragorn only states that he would have Legolas go with Boromir to Minas Tirith "if Legolas is not willing to leave us," by which I assume he would have been more or less fine with Legolas accompanying them to Mordor as well.

I always took his choice of Gimli as being due to the simple fact that he was a Dwarf and presumably the most likely of all of them to endure the hardships of Mordor - although as of course we've already discovered by this point Gimli is perhaps more delicate than might otherwise have been assumed: "Hard was my parting from Lothlórien."

I always thought Aragorn's choosing of Gimli was very similar to his choosing/acceptance of Sam, "who could not bear it otherwise," because Gimli had already said "It is clear to me that I cannot leave Frodo." Yes, Legolas immediately adds "And I too will go with him. It would be faithless now to say farewell," but that's purely about a sense of doing what's right ... not the same as saying "I cannot leave Frodo." I don't think it was quite in the sense that Sam couldn't, but to Gimli it would have gone against the stout loyalty of his nature, would have been an impossible choice for him to make. I think he felt deep respect for Frodo for what he had taken on and through what he and all the Fellowship had endured together, and felt a strong bond with him. Note his "Come with me, Frodo! I would not have you go without seeing Kheled-zaram." It's almost like "You've had a rotten day, you're doing a terrible job, and you're not missing out on seeing this." Also, he states his intentions before Legolas does, because he feels them more urgently. Not forgetting, of course, his earlier "Faithless is he who says farewell when the road darkens" - it was he and no-one else who had that conversation with Elrond just before they set out. I think that was due to his dwarvish nature - you endure a task and stick to it - but I believe there was also a bond of loyalty there, which deepened. Of course, he felt this to a high degree for all his companions, and that loyalty was switched to his other companions, once the choice was taken out of his hands and the Ring and Frodo had gone beyond their help (barring the help of diversion tactics).

Of course, Merry and Pippin want to accompany Frodo too, but Merry does admit that "we did not realize what that would mean." I think it's a combination of the "I cannot leave him" with Gimli's proven hardihood and battle prowess, added to the fact that in Sam Frodo already has a stout hobbit companion, whose loyalty to Frodo is perhaps fiercer than the "gentle loyalty" of Merry and Pippin that Gandalf later says they do not thankfully have to imagine being tested in the Dark Tower. Although anyone could and eventually probably break under torture, of course, even Sam.

I know this thread is about Boromir, but I thought this was an important point.

[Calacirya]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

I always thought Aragorn's choosing of Gimli was very similar to his choosing/acceptance of Sam, "who could not bear it otherwise," because Gimli had already said "It is clear to me that I cannot leave Frodo." Yes, Legolas immediately adds "And I too will go with him. It would be faithless now to say farewell," but that's purely about a sense of doing what's right ... not the same as saying "I cannot leave Frodo." I don't think it was quite in the sense that Sam couldn't, but to Gimli it would have gone against the stout loyalty of his nature, would have been an impossible choice for him to make. I think he felt deep respect for Frodo for what he had taken on and through what he and all the Fellowship had endured together, and felt a strong bond with him. Note his "Come with me, Frodo! I would not have you go without seeing Kheled-zaram." It's almost like "You've had a rotten day, you're doing a terrible job, and you're not missing out on seeing this." Also, he states his intentions before Legolas does, because he feels them more urgently. Not forgetting, of course, his earlier "Faithless is he who says farewell when the road darkens" - it was he and no-one else who had that conversation with Elrond just before they set out. I think that was due to his dwarvish nature - you endure a task and stick to it - but I believe there was also a bond of loyalty there, which deepened. Of course, he felt this for all his companions, and that loyalty was switched to his other companions, once the choice was taken out of his hands and the Ring and Frodo had gone beyond their help (barring the help of diversion tactics).

Of course, Merry and Pippin want to accompany Frodo too, but Merry does admit that "we did not realize what that would mean." I think it's a combination of the "I cannot leave him" with Gimli's proven hardihood and battle prowess, added to the fact that in Sam Frodo already has a stout hobbit companion, whose loyalty to Frodo is perhaps fiercer than the "gentle loyalty" of Merry and Pippin that Gandalf later says they do not thankfully have to imagine being tested in the Dark Tower. Although anyone could and eventually probably break under torture, of course, even Sam.

I know this thread is about Boromir, but I thought this was an important point.

Applying your logic (which is outstanding and very well thought out, by the way) what would you say the intentions for Boromir even WANTING to join the Fellowship would be? Where do you think his moral intentions lie? Any thoughts outside of what was explicitly was stated in Tolkien's works?

[Pervinca Took]

That's a difficult one. In the book, of course, the companions' decisions to accompany Frodo - with the exception of those of the hobbits - happen offstage. However, Aragorn states his intentions when they are gathered together - and says that, because he is going to Gondor, Boromir is coming with them too, and that he is "a valiant man." Plus Gandalf said earlier, "I think I shall come with you."

Boromir may have been proud, but he was also warmed by the idea of companionship in the wild, I think. And he had journeyed to Rivendell to find the answer to the riddle, and Aragorn was the one who answered it, producing the sword that was broken. In that sense, it was natural to travel back with the one who had answered it, rather than return alone, since the errand had been considered sufficiently important for a dangerous journey in the wild in the first place. Plus, his pride aside, "I did not come to beg any boon," he admitted that Gondor needed help - "For though I do not ask for help, we need it." He was learning from Aragorn, and he did care about his city. They were going to Minas Tirith together. He accepted Elrond's insistence that the Ring should be destroyed at the time. It was the collective decision of those he had ridden to see for advice and answers, and Aragorn shared it. And Gandalf, even if he did not have as close an affinity to Gandalf as did his brother, Faramir (although the perceived extent of that was possibly augmented by the jealousy of his father).

Of course, when the idea of abandoning the journey to Minas Tirith was posited, as the Quest of the Ring was more important, he became impatient and troubled. He was still going to Minas Tirith, as he had always said, but he had hoped for fellowship on the way, and the help of Aragorn. Otherwise, why had he waited for a month, and for the onset of winter, or even, perhaps, left his home in the first place? And he also felt an appropriate measure of loyalty to those he had journeyed with: "It is not the way of the men of Minas Tirith to desert their friends at need ... and you will need my strength, if ever you are to reach the Tindrock. To the tall isle I will go, but no further. There I shall turn to my home, alone if my help has not earned the reward of any companionship."

All that said, I wonder what Boromir did for the whole month they were at Rivendell before setting out. I suspect that he spent a lot of time with Aragorn. Would he have gone out on some of the scouting missions? And would he fully have understood that Aragorn was going to claim the kingship of Gondor?

It's never really occurred to me before, but why on earth did someone as important to Gondor as the Steward's eldest son set out to Rivendell alone, with no escort or at least without even one other companion? Sure, he was hardy and mighty, but "the mightiest man can be slain by one arrow," as Pippin observed. Did he insist upon setting out completely alone? (It might have been said that he did, and I don't remember).

One unrelated thing: when I checked a quotation I used in my last post, Merry's "we did not realize what that would mean," I noticed the American use of z in realize, in two different editions, but both in British publications.

BTW, a very warm welcome to the Downs, Calacirya.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

All that said, I wonder what Boromir did for the whole month they were at Rivendell before setting out. I suspect that he spent a lot of time with Aragorn. Would he have gone out on some of the scouting missions? And would he fully have understood that Aragorn was going to claim the kingship of Gondor?

I doubt Boromir was involved with the scouts. He didn't know the land for one thing. He might have spent some time with Aragorn clarifying the latter's lineage, as he couldn't have been in the dark about what Aragorn's arrival in Minas Tirith would lead to if the West was victorious against Sauron.

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

It's never really occurred to be before, but why on earth did someone as important to Gondor as the Steward's eldest son set out to Rivendell alone, with no escort or at least without even one other companion? Sure, he was hardy and mighty, but "the mightiest man can be slain by one arrow," as Pippin observed. Did he insist upon setting out completely alone? (It might have been said that he did, and I don't remember).

I can only surmise that the errand, centered as it was around Isildur's Bane, was considered secret enough that companions for Boromir were not an option. The one journeying to Rivendelll would need to be either Boromir of Faramir, since one who had actually experienced the dream should tell Elrond of it, and Boromir got his way.

[Calacirya]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

All that said, I wonder what Boromir did for the whole month they were at Rivendell before setting out. I suspect that he spent a lot of time with Aragorn. ... And would he fully have understood that Aragorn was going to claim the kingship of Gondor?

He was very clear on who Aragorn was during that month. As this happens in the Council of Elrond:

`And who are you, and what have you to do with Minas Tirith?' asked Boromir, looking in wonder at the lean face of the Ranger and his weather-stained cloak.
"He is Aragorn son of Arathorn,' said Elrond; "and he is descended through many fathers from Isildur Elendil's son of Minas Ithil. He is the Chief of the Dúnedain in the North, and few are now left of that folk."

With such a grand introduction from Elrond, Boromir couldn't be much confused about who Aragorn is, in many aspects.

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

It's never really occurred to me before, but why on earth did someone as important to Gondor as the Steward's eldest son set out to Rivendell alone, with no escort or at least without even one other companion? Sure, he was hardy and mighty, but "the mightiest man can be slain by one arrow," as Pippin observed. Did he insist upon setting out completely alone? (It might have been said that he did, and I don't remember).

While I'd be more than happy to rant on about all the reasons I believe Boromir was sent on this quest, I believe Gandalf summarized it best in Return of the King when meeting Denethor for the first time in the books. Gandalf speaks,

Boromir claimed the errand and would not suffer any other to have it. He was a masterful man, and one to take what he desired.

So while we can banter all day about why Boromir was sent from Gondor, in the end I believe it was the simple fact that Boromir would not have allowed anyone else to take on this task. Boromir believed that the ring should come back to Gondor (or believed his father, anyway) and once he decided on his course of action, I do not believe there was any stopping him.

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

BTW, a very warm welcome to the Downs, Calacirya.

Thank you very much! I've been looking for a place like the Downs for ages, but most places are years dead. Nice to see some active people still talking about these things.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I was thinking more of Denethor's reaction if Boromir had indeed returned to tell how no one would accompany him on his journey back. That wouldn't have done much to elevate Denethor's considerations of other potential allies in the West.

But Boromir wasn't sent to seek allies, but to seek the answer to the dream-riddle. That he certainly found.

WRT another line of discusion: although Bormir certainly learned right off the bat who Aragorn was, that "Who" was "heir to the North-kingdom, Chieftain of the Dunedain of Arnor." That in itself did not imply advancing a claim to the throne of Gondor; a thousand years' worth of Aragorn's predecessors had not done so, even though some of them were certainly in communication with Minas Tirith from time to time. Boromir plainly had no problem with the idea of Aragorn coming to MT, seeing the Sword (and possibly the arm that wielded it) as great potential help in the war.