Why was Boromir allowed to join the Fellowship? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Pervinca Took · 09-30-2013, 06:05 AM

That's a difficult one. In the book, of course, the companions' decisions to accompany Frodo - with the exception of those of the hobbits - happen offstage. However, Aragorn states his intentions when they are gathered together - and says that, because he is going to Gondor, Boromir is coming with them too, and that he is "a valiant man." Plus Gandalf said earlier, "I think I shall come with you."

Boromir may have been proud, but he was also warmed by the idea of companionship in the wild, I think. And he had journeyed to Rivendell to find the answer to the riddle, and Aragorn was the one who answered it, producing the sword that was broken. In that sense, it was natural to travel back with the one who had answered it, rather than return alone, since the errand had been considered sufficiently important for a dangerous journey in the wild in the first place. Plus, his pride aside, "I did not come to beg any boon," he admitted that Gondor needed help - "For though I do not ask for help, we need it." He was learning from Aragorn, and he did care about his city. They were going to Minas Tirith together. He accepted Elrond's insistence that the Ring should be destroyed at the time. It was the collective decision of those he had ridden to see for advice and answers, and Aragorn shared it. And Gandalf, even if he did not have as close an affinity to Gandalf as did his brother, Faramir (although the perceived extent of that was possibly augmented by the jealousy of his father).

Of course, when the idea of abandoning the journey to Minas Tirith was posited, as the Quest of the Ring was more important, he became impatient and troubled. He was still going to Minas Tirith, as he had always said, but he had hoped for fellowship on the way, and the help of Aragorn. Otherwise, why had he waited for a month, and for the onset of winter, or even, perhaps, left his home in the first place? And he also felt an appropriate measure of loyalty to those he had journeyed with: "It is not the way of the men of Minas Tirith to desert their friends at need ... and you will need my strength, if ever you are to reach the Tindrock. To the tall isle I will go, but no further. There I shall turn to my home, alone if my help has not earned the reward of any companionship."

All that said, I wonder what Boromir did for the whole month they were at Rivendell before setting out. I suspect that he spent a lot of time with Aragorn. Would he have gone out on some of the scouting missions? And would he fully have understood that Aragorn was going to claim the kingship of Gondor?

It's never really occurred to me before, but why on earth did someone as important to Gondor as the Steward's eldest son set out to Rivendell alone, with no escort or at least without even one other companion? Sure, he was hardy and mighty, but "the mightiest man can be slain by one arrow," as Pippin observed. Did he insist upon setting out completely alone? (It might have been said that he did, and I don't remember).

One unrelated thing: when I checked a quotation I used in my last post, Merry's "we did not realize what that would mean," I noticed the American use of z in realize, in two different editions, but both in British publications.

BTW, a very warm welcome to the Downs, Calacirya.

Inziladun · 09-30-2013, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

All that said, I wonder what Boromir did for the whole month they were at Rivendell before setting out. I suspect that he spent a lot of time with Aragorn. Would he have gone out on some of the scouting missions? And would he fully have understood that Aragorn was going to claim the kingship of Gondor?

I doubt Boromir was involved with the scouts. He didn't know the land for one thing. He might have spent some time with Aragorn clarifying the latter's lineage, as he couldn't have been in the dark about what Aragorn's arrival in Minas Tirith would lead to if the West was victorious against Sauron.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

It's never really occurred to be before, but why on earth did someone as important to Gondor as the Steward's eldest son set out to Rivendell alone, with no escort or at least without even one other companion? Sure, he was hardy and mighty, but "the mightiest man can be slain by one arrow," as Pippin observed. Did he insist upon setting out completely alone? (It might have been said that he did, and I don't remember).

I can only surmise that the errand, centered as it was around Isildur's Bane, was considered secret enough that companions for Boromir were not an option. The one journeying to Rivendelll would need to be either Boromir of Faramir, since one who had actually experienced the dream should tell Elrond of it, and Boromir got his way.

Calacirya · 09-30-2013, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

All that said, I wonder what Boromir did for the whole month they were at Rivendell before setting out. I suspect that he spent a lot of time with Aragorn. ... And would he fully have understood that Aragorn was going to claim the kingship of Gondor?

He was very clear on who Aragorn was during that month. As this happens in the Council of Elrond:

Quote:

`And who are you, and what have you to do with Minas Tirith?' asked Boromir, looking in wonder at the lean face of the Ranger and his weather-stained cloak.
"He is Aragorn son of Arathorn,' said Elrond; "and he is descended through many fathers from Isildur Elendil's son of Minas Ithil. He is the Chief of the Dúnedain in the North, and few are now left of that folk."

With such a grand introduction from Elrond, Boromir couldn't be much confused about who Aragorn is, in many aspects.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

It's never really occurred to me before, but why on earth did someone as important to Gondor as the Steward's eldest son set out to Rivendell alone, with no escort or at least without even one other companion? Sure, he was hardy and mighty, but "the mightiest man can be slain by one arrow," as Pippin observed. Did he insist upon setting out completely alone? (It might have been said that he did, and I don't remember).

While I'd be more than happy to rant on about all the reasons I believe Boromir was sent on this quest, I believe Gandalf summarized it best in Return of the King when meeting Denethor for the first time in the books. Gandalf speaks,

Quote:

Boromir claimed the errand and would not suffer any other to have it. He was a masterful man, and one to take what he desired.

So while we can banter all day about why Boromir was sent from Gondor, in the end I believe it was the simple fact that Boromir would not have allowed anyone else to take on this task. Boromir believed that the ring should come back to Gondor (or believed his father, anyway) and once he decided on his course of action, I do not believe there was any stopping him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

BTW, a very warm welcome to the Downs, Calacirya.

Thank you very much! I've been looking for a place like the Downs for ages, but most places are years dead. Nice to see some active people still talking about these things.

William Cloud Hicklin · 10-15-2013, 02:25 PM

I was thinking more of Denethor's reaction if Boromir had indeed returned to tell how no one would accompany him on his journey back. That wouldn't have done much to elevate Denethor's considerations of other potential allies in the West.

But Boromir wasn't sent to seek allies, but to seek the answer to the dream-riddle. That he certainly found.

WRT another line of discusion: although Bormir certainly learned right off the bat who Aragorn was, that "Who" was "heir to the North-kingdom, Chieftain of the Dunedain of Arnor." That in itself did not imply advancing a claim to the throne of Gondor; a thousand years' worth of Aragorn's predecessors had not done so, even though some of them were certainly in communication with Minas Tirith from time to time. Boromir plainly had no problem with the idea of Aragorn coming to MT, seeing the Sword (and possibly the arm that wielded it) as great potential help in the war.

Inziladun · 10-15-2013, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

But Boromir wasn't sent to seek allies, but to seek the answer to the dream-riddle. That he certainly found.

True, but Boromir's words to the Company seem to indicate he would have been at least a bit irritated if he had had to go to Minas Tirith alone.

Quote:

'To the tall isle I will go, but no further. There I shall turn to my home, alone if my help has not earned the reward of any companionship.'

FOTR The Great River

As much as Denethor loved his son, he might have seen Boromir returning by himself as a slight, which could have turned him even more against the thought of accepting aid from anyone but the Rohirrim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

WRT another line of discusion: although Bormir certainly learned right off the bat who Aragorn was, that "Who" was "heir to the North-kingdom, Chieftain of the Dunedain of Arnor." That in itself did not imply advancing a claim to the throne of Gondor; a thousand years' worth of Aragorn's predecessors had not done so, even though some of them were certainly in communication with Minas Tirith from time to time. Boromir plainly had no problem with the idea of Aragorn coming to MT, seeing the Sword (and possibly the arm that wielded it) as great potential help in the war.

Boromir though was possibly looking no further than the defeat of Sauron. If Aragorn survived the war, the question of kingship could then be dealt with.
It may be noteworthy that in Boromir's Ring-delusion, he "became himself a mighty king, benevolent and wise." Maybe his acceptance of Aragorn was indeed not as solid as it may have seemed.

William Cloud Hicklin · 10-15-2013, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

True, but Boromir's words to the Company seem to indicate he would have been at least a bit irritated if he had had to go to Minas Tirith alone.

FOTR The Great River

Quote:

'To the tall isle I will go, but no further. There I shall turn to my home, alone if my help has not earned the reward of any companionship.'

As much as Denethor loved his son, he might have seen Boromir returning by himself as a slight, which could have turned him even more against the thought of accepting aid from anyone but the Rohirrim.

But the context by the time of that debate was wholly different. Gandalf had fallen, Aragorn now had responsibility for Frodo and the Quest, as opposed to his original plan to go to MT with Boromir, and at any rate Boromir had declared from the beginning his intention to return home, where he was needed. At this point of course he is trying to make an argument for the whole Company to go with him- in which it must be said that Ring-lust might have been a factor by now.

I don't think Denethor would have seen much of a 'slight' in what was conceived as in essence an into-the-blue reconnaissance; Boromir was sent off to find "Imladris," about which even Denethor hardly knew anything, even where it was, save that "Elrond and Half-elven once dwelt" there. He wasn't expecting allies or even a solo Great Hero, just an answer to the riddle (and the sudden reappearance of 'Thorongil' would hardly have made him happy!).

Inziladun · 10-15-2013, 07:40 PM

Well, maybe after all it was just because Boromir was "going their way" that he was chosen. But the fact that he was the son of the Steward surely was a partial factor as well. Would a Beregond or an Ingold have necessarily been given the same consideration?

Juicy-Sweet · 12-21-2013, 07:49 PM

I imagine Elrond and Gandalf having the final say - and maybe discussing the composition of the fellowship a bit after the somewhat chaotic council.

As regards to Boromir...

There's a political issue as well. Gondor is THE most important ally among the human kingdoms. Offending them is no-go. Refusing a fully qualified son-of-the-steward to join the fellowship and have him trek home alone 50 miles behind them would be so insulting as to ruin Rivendell-Gondor relations for years. That just would not work at all with the big was coming up and all.

Just for that reason, they HAD to accept him, and they would have let him join even if he had been much more tempted than he actually was.

As for his temptation - I am sure they were aware uf it, but saw into his Heart and thought he would most likely be able to cope, although you could not be 100% sure. But then again, nobody in the fellowship were 100% ring-resistant anyway.

The book for me is consistent with ANY of the fellowship trying to take it at one point or another. (Maybe apart from Sam - but at the end, even him started to feel the ring's tug a bit.)

Thus I think their reasoning was " Yeah, he is tempted, but it is so important for politics that he joins that we have to just cross our fingers and hope he behaves. In any case, there's Gandalf and Aragorn in case he misbehaves. He can't kill Gandalf, he can't sneak up on Legolas, and if he kills Frodo and runs away, Aragorn will track him down. The Fellowship is pretty safe as it is, everyone guarding on everyone and nobody being strong enough to take everybody else Down. It'll be alright with this guy!."

And lastly - Boromir wasn't that tempted! He managed to break the spell himself really fast. And he didn't even try to kill Frodo as Smeagol killed Deagol. I don't find it unreasonably that you could estimate in Rivendell that he would be able to resist the ring...

09-30-2013, 06:05 AM	#1
Pervinca Took Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: The Treetops, C/O Great Smials Posts: 5,035	That's a difficult one. In the book, of course, the companions' decisions to accompany Frodo - with the exception of those of the hobbits - happen offstage. However, Aragorn states his intentions when they are gathered together - and says that, because he is going to Gondor, Boromir is coming with them too, and that he is "a valiant man." Plus Gandalf said earlier, "I think I shall come with you." Boromir may have been proud, but he was also warmed by the idea of companionship in the wild, I think. And he had journeyed to Rivendell to find the answer to the riddle, and Aragorn was the one who answered it, producing the sword that was broken. In that sense, it was natural to travel back with the one who had answered it, rather than return alone, since the errand had been considered sufficiently important for a dangerous journey in the wild in the first place. Plus, his pride aside, "I did not come to beg any boon," he admitted that Gondor needed help - "For though I do not ask for help, we need it." He was learning from Aragorn, and he did care about his city. They were going to Minas Tirith together. He accepted Elrond's insistence that the Ring should be destroyed at the time. It was the collective decision of those he had ridden to see for advice and answers, and Aragorn shared it. And Gandalf, even if he did not have as close an affinity to Gandalf as did his brother, Faramir (although the perceived extent of that was possibly augmented by the jealousy of his father). Of course, when the idea of abandoning the journey to Minas Tirith was posited, as the Quest of the Ring was more important, he became impatient and troubled. He was still going to Minas Tirith, as he had always said, but he had hoped for fellowship on the way, and the help of Aragorn. Otherwise, why had he waited for a month, and for the onset of winter, or even, perhaps, left his home in the first place? And he also felt an appropriate measure of loyalty to those he had journeyed with: "It is not the way of the men of Minas Tirith to desert their friends at need ... and you will need my strength, if ever you are to reach the Tindrock. To the tall isle I will go, but no further. There I shall turn to my home, alone if my help has not earned the reward of any companionship." All that said, I wonder what Boromir did for the whole month they were at Rivendell before setting out. I suspect that he spent a lot of time with Aragorn. Would he have gone out on some of the scouting missions? And would he fully have understood that Aragorn was going to claim the kingship of Gondor? It's never really occurred to me before, but why on earth did someone as important to Gondor as the Steward's eldest son set out to Rivendell alone, with no escort or at least without even one other companion? Sure, he was hardy and mighty, but "the mightiest man can be slain by one arrow," as Pippin observed. Did he insist upon setting out completely alone? (It might have been said that he did, and I don't remember). One unrelated thing: when I checked a quotation I used in my last post, Merry's "we did not realize what that would mean," I noticed the American use of z in realize, in two different editions, but both in British publications. BTW, a very warm welcome to the Downs, Calacirya. __________________ "Sit by the firelight's glow; tell us an old tale we know. Tell of adventures strange and rare; never to change, ever to share! Stories we tell will cast their spell, now and for always." Last edited by Pervinca Took; 09-30-2013 at 12:50 PM.

10-15-2013, 02:25 PM	#4
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	I was thinking more of Denethor's reaction if Boromir had indeed returned to tell how no one would accompany him on his journey back. That wouldn't have done much to elevate Denethor's considerations of other potential allies in the West. But Boromir wasn't sent to seek allies, but to seek the answer to the dream-riddle. That he certainly found. WRT another line of discusion: although Bormir certainly learned right off the bat who Aragorn was, that "Who" was "heir to the North-kingdom, Chieftain of the Dunedain of Arnor." That in itself did not imply advancing a claim to the throne of Gondor; a thousand years' worth of Aragorn's predecessors had not done so, even though some of them were certainly in communication with Minas Tirith from time to time. Boromir plainly had no problem with the idea of Aragorn coming to MT, seeing the Sword (and possibly the arm that wielded it) as great potential help in the war. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

10-15-2013, 07:40 PM	#7
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,039	Well, maybe after all it was just because Boromir was "going their way" that he was chosen. But the fact that he was the son of the Steward surely was a partial factor as well. Would a Beregond or an Ingold have necessarily been given the same consideration? __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

12-21-2013, 07:49 PM	#8
Juicy-Sweet Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 49	I imagine Elrond and Gandalf having the final say - and maybe discussing the composition of the fellowship a bit after the somewhat chaotic council. As regards to Boromir... There's a political issue as well. Gondor is THE most important ally among the human kingdoms. Offending them is no-go. Refusing a fully qualified son-of-the-steward to join the fellowship and have him trek home alone 50 miles behind them would be so insulting as to ruin Rivendell-Gondor relations for years. That just would not work at all with the big was coming up and all. Just for that reason, they HAD to accept him, and they would have let him join even if he had been much more tempted than he actually was. As for his temptation - I am sure they were aware uf it, but saw into his Heart and thought he would most likely be able to cope, although you could not be 100% sure. But then again, nobody in the fellowship were 100% ring-resistant anyway. The book for me is consistent with ANY of the fellowship trying to take it at one point or another. (Maybe apart from Sam - but at the end, even him started to feel the ring's tug a bit.) Thus I think their reasoning was " Yeah, he is tempted, but it is so important for politics that he joins that we have to just cross our fingers and hope he behaves. In any case, there's Gandalf and Aragorn in case he misbehaves. He can't kill Gandalf, he can't sneak up on Legolas, and if he kills Frodo and runs away, Aragorn will track him down. The Fellowship is pretty safe as it is, everyone guarding on everyone and nobody being strong enough to take everybody else Down. It'll be alright with this guy!." And lastly - Boromir wasn't that tempted! He managed to break the spell himself really fast. And he didn't even try to kill Frodo as Smeagol killed Deagol. I don't find it unreasonably that you could estimate in Rivendell that he would be able to resist the ring...