Noldor or Numenoreans

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I don't doubt that they come from the book, but wondering where did Tolkien write this. Is there any note in the book from where they got the reference.

Tolkien wrote these descriptions in reaction to an illustration by Pauline Baynes. The full contents haven't been published yet, but some of it appears in Unfinished Tales and The History Of The Hobbit, along with Hammond and Scull's book.

This source was not much described in Unfinished Tales for example, because until relatively recently Pauline Baynes was still alive, and Tolkien's comments were inspired by his seeming dislike of part of her illustration.

However, we do know Celeborn was tall for a Teleri elf. His name seems to have meant 'silver-tall'. Since he is 6'4 can assume the majority of the Sindar/Teleri were around 6ft. This fits in as I said with Legolas being shorter than Boromir.

I don't think we have to drop all the way down to 6 feet. Another late note (published in Unfinished Tales), states that the 'Teleri were in general somewhat less in build and stature than the Noldor.'

I have seen the second quote and it comes from Dwarves and Men, but it cannot be made to work with the text.

If Celeborn a tall and royal Sindar was around 6'4 then how could the average height for the Eldar be 7ft? The same applies for Legolas, who was of high Sindarin origin, but is shorter than Boromir.

I would say that if Tolkien desired the Eldar to be normally around seven feet tall (if this was the later text compared to the 'PB description' that is), he probably would have written more specific descriptions of characters to fall in line with that.

Yes, but Boromir is around 6'4 and taller than Legolas too. Boromir is also around the same height as Celeborn, who was tall for the Sindar. So again this indicates they must have been shorter than 7ft and closer to maybe 6ft.

Tolkien was not bound to make Galadriel 6 foot 4 for example, and I agree, if Celeborn was of like height with her he would be too short if ODAM was in play. Technically Tolkien had only published that the Lady was no less tall than the Lord. But somewhat less [for the Teleri] could be 6 foot 2 or 3 compared to 6 foot 6 and taller, with Celeborn still taller than the average Teler but shorter than the average Noldo.

And JRRT published that Aragorn was the tallest of the Fellowship, as already noted (and something later about the Sea-kings of old as well). The description of Boromir might arguably imply that he was taller than all others in the Company excepting Aragorn, but I'm not sure this is necessarily certain...

... if I recall correctly the context is about ploughing through snow, which is why Boromir's broader build is noted too, but Legolas is not concerned here in any case, as he can run on top of the snow.

Tolkien noted that Legolas was as tall as a young tree

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

Tolkien wrote these descriptions in reaction to an illustration by Pauline Baynes. The full contents haven't been published yet, but some of it appears in Unfinished Tales and The History Of The Hobbit, along with Hammond and Scull's book.

This source was not much described in Unfinished Tales for example, because until relatively recently Pauline Baynes was still alive, and Tolkien's comments were inspired by his seeming dislike of part of her illustration.

Thanks for that.

I don't think we have to drop all the way down to 6 feet. Another late note (published in Unfinished Tales), states that the 'Teleri were in general somewhat less in build and stature than the Noldor.'

That's the same note where he says that Celeborn was tall for a Teleri and gives the meaning of his name. This is from a very late account of Galdriel/Celeborn's history.

Somewhat less in build is ambiguous, considering a little less in height for Boromir is aroudn 2 inches.

What we can be certain of is even a very tall Telerian Prince is only about the same height as the tallest of the Noldor women. This does indicate quite more than a couple of inches difference.

I would say that if Tolkien desired the Eldar to be normally around seven feet tall (if this was the later text compared to the 'PB description' that is), he probably would have written more specific descriptions of characters to fall in line with that.

This is true, nothing was put in print yet, but all the sources seem to have been written at the same time and the account in the Unfinished Tales is certainly the most detailed.

Tolkien was not bound to make Galadriel 6 foot 4 for example, and I agree, if Celeborn was of like height with her he would be too short if ODAM was in play. Technically Tolkien had only published that the Lady was no less tall than the Lord. But somewhat less [for the Teleri] could be 6 foot 2 or 3 compared to 6 foot 6 and taller, with Celeborn still taller than the average Teler but shorter than the average Noldo.

This is possible, there is no reason to go as low as 6ft, but is being just a couple of inches taller than the norm enough to be given the name praising your height?
I would say no.

As you said he could easily change Galadriel's height, but it seems the more detailed account.

And JRRT published that Aragorn was the tallest of the Fellowship, as already noted (and something later about the Sea-kings of old as well). The description of Boromir might arguably imply that he was taller than all others in the Company excepting Aragorn, but I'm not sure this is necessarily certain...

... if I recall correctly the context is about ploughing through snow, which is why Boromir's broader build is noted too, but Legolas is not concerned here in any case, as he can run on top of the snow.

Tolkien noted that Legolas was as tall as a young tree

Yes and he mentioned how Legolas was immensely strong too.

It's true that the particular passage strongly indicates, even very strongly indicates that Boromir was the second tallest, but it does not confirm this fact for certain.

Though one thing it does confirm is Aragorn and Boromir were stronger. Legolas appears to agree with him on this matter too, either that or he is being very lazy.

All this does confirm is that even after their waining the Numenoreans were stronger than the Sindar, but the Sindar as a whole are weaker than the Noldor.

However, the House of Hador are stronger than the Noldor Princes.

EDIT

Off topic, but it is interesting that Christopher Tolkien speculates that Galadriel and Celeborn may have been present when Feanor's sons sacked Doriath and actually played a part in helping Elwing escape. If this is the case then I wonder what Galadriel's feelings on Feanor was then.

[Galin]

What we can be certain of is even a very tall Telerian Prince is only about the same height as the tallest of the Noldor women. This does indicate quite more than a couple of inches difference.

But maybe there is room in: the Lady no less tall than the Lord. The general meaning could be that even 'Silver-tall' does not tower over Nerwende Artanis, because she herself is the tallest of Elf women. They are both tall, if not exactly the same height; although I suppose one could also press 'no less' to mean exactly that.

If there is some room we might have an average of 6:2 compared to a Celeborn standing at 6:5 or even 6:6... and so the Teler with the 'tall name' could be as much as four inches taller than the average Teler, if only equal to the average Noldo.

The reason I don't go to 6 feet is because 'somewhat less' for the Teleri would then be a half foot less that the average Elda of 6:6, which seems too much to me for somewhat less, and way too much for the 7 foot idea.

Even 6:2 seems notably less than 6:6 (plus taller for Kings and leaders) to me, but if Celeborn Silver-tall is 6:4 then we have to decrease the average Teler even more.

This is possible, there is no reason to go as low as 6ft, but is being just a couple of inches taller than the norm enough to be given the name praising your height? I would say no.

Well, his relative tallness would still be distinguishing (like his silver hair), so maybe... yes

Just had a thought. Isn't the tallest of all Eru's children, Elwe, a Teler? An exception I guess.

[Morthoron]

Against the ravages of the common cold, I would choose the Noldor every time.

[Mithalwen]

I wonder if the Numenoreans were particularly afflicted by Man-flu..

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I wonder if the Numenoreans were particularly afflicted by Man-flu..

Perhaps they caught elfluenza.

[Saurondil]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I wonder if the Numenoreans were particularly afflicted by Man-flu..

## Probably not until the coming of Sauron, or even later:

"This was the beginning of that people that in the Grey-elven speech are called the Dunedain: the Numenoreans, Kings among Men. But they did not thus escape from the doom of death that Iluvatar had set upon all Mankind, and they were mortal still, though their years were long, and they knew no sickness, ere the shadow fell upon them.

Very much later, after 3264, and possibly as late as the building of the Great Armament in 3310-3319:

"Sauron daily increased, and in that temple...men made sacrifice to Melkor that he should release them from Death....But for all this Death did not depart from the land, rather it came sooner and more often, and in many dreadful guises. For whereas aforetime men had grown slowly old, and had laid them down in the end to sleep, when they were weary at last of the world, now madness and sickness assailed them; and yet they were afraid to die and go out into the dark, the realm of the lord that they had taken; and they cursed themselves in their agony."

http://readlotron-line.blogspot.co.u...kallabeth.html

Earlier: no H1N1 or norovirus or Man-flu - near the end, perhaps all three, and lots of other nasty ailments. Unfortunately, almost no epidemiological or demographic info is given. So there will be no dissertations on "Hydrological variables as agents of the transmission of disease in pre-Downfall Numenor".

Does anyone know whether the waning in lifespan under the Shadow was accompanied by waning in stature ? I don't know of any references in Tolkien - but it might make sense: Elendil must have been called "the Tall" for a reason. His height of 7 feet 11 inches may have been exceptional - though whether he was unusually tall even for a Numenorean, or by the standards of a particular group among them (such as the King's Men), is not clear.