Noldor or Numenoreans

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Height doesn't necessarily equal strenth. If you look at the animal kingdom the most powerful beast tend to be sturdy rather than plain tall. There are differend kinds of strength even among mortal athletes the strength of gymnasts compared with that of a rower or a rugby player. I suppose the strongest man might have more sheer power but the elvish speed and agility might give them the edge overall.

Superlatives are tricksy in Tolkien...oldest, tallest..

I agree with this to a certain extent and the dwarves were very strong despite their height. However, it is generally true that with greater height comes greater strength.

In the case of Turin we have the perfect blend of speed, power, reach and agility. He is stronger, more agile, faster and has the reach advantage, but is still an inferior warrior to his father.

Tolkien did tend to overuse oldest, but not tallest as much. Thingol was regarded as the tallest and after him Turgon, but later he added that Turgon's brother Arakano was taller.

Legolas is a standard Sindar from a noble family. We know he was shorter than Boromir and Aragorn, but was still tall so we can guess his height may have been around 6ft to 6ft 2. This adds weight to the writings that have the average height for the Noldor at 6,4 and the Sindar slightly shorter.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Legolas is a standard Sindar from a noble family. We know he was shorter than Boromir and Aragorn, but was still tall so we can guess his height may have been around 6ft to 6ft 2. This adds weight to the writings that have the average height for the Noldor at 6,4 and the Sindar slightly shorter.

I think that's a bit short for the average Noldo. According to one relatively late description Eldarin men were no less than 6 foot 6, and taller for some kings and leaders. Eldarin women: seldom less than 6 feet -- these heights are noted by JRRT in reaction to an illustration by Pauline Baynes.


But there's another late description in Of Dwarves And Men where the Eldar appear to be generally taller. 'They were called 'Halflings'; but this refers to the normal height of Men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.'

I have no real evidence as to which text came after the other however, but as I say both are relatively late.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

I think that's a bit short for the average Noldo. According to one relatively late description Eldarin men were no less than 6 foot 6, and taller for some kings and leaders. Eldarin women: seldom less than 6 feet -- these heights are noted by JRRT in reaction to an illustration by Pauline Baynes.


But there's another late description in Of Dwarves And Men where the Eldar appear to be generally taller. 'They were called 'Halflings'; but this refers to the normal height of Men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.'

I have no real evidence as to which text came after the other however, but as I say both are relatively late.

I am not sure where the description is of Eldarin men being 6 foot 6 comes from. I have seen the quote about the Noldor being around 7ft, but the notes says to look into the further writings in the Unfinished Tales. The Unfinished Tales has them at about 6,4.

The average Noldor is not one from the royal houses and nothing like the tallest.

I have given the example of Legolas previously who is actually from a noble Sindarin House. He is still shorter than Boromir, who is around 6,4 or so.

I don't think an average height of 6,4 is too short. The royal family of Numenor are directly descended from the two tallest of the Edain and 2/3 of the tallest Eldar. They were bound to be exceptionally tall.

It seems both notes are from around 1968.

This is all Christopher Tolkien has to say on the Eldar's height being 7ft.

See the discussion of lineal measurements and their equation with our measurements in the Legend of the Disaster of the Gladden Fields.[ This discussion (which, with the work itself belongs, belongs to the very late period-1968 or later) is found in the Unfinished Tales pp285. ff where a note on the stature of the Hobbits if also given.

Looking at Lord of the Rings and the information we have I don't see why you think 6ft 4 is a bit short for the average Noldor.

Aragorn was the tallest of the company, but Boromir, little less in height was broader and heavier in build.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I am not sure where the description is of Eldarin men being 6 foot 6 comes from.

Hammond and Scull published this information in their Reader's Companion to The Lord of the Rings.

'The Quendi were in origin a tall people. The Eldar (...) they were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were seldom less than six feet in height; their full-grown elfmen no less than six and a half feet, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.'

JRRT, late manuscript, The Lord of the Rings Reader's Companion, Hammond and scull, p. 107

I have seen the quote about the Noldor being around 7ft, but the notes says to look into the further writings in the Unfinished Tales. The Unfinished Tales has them at about 6,4.

Unfinished Tales describes Galadriel at 6 foot 4, but not the average Noldo that I'm aware of.

The average Noldor is not one from the royal houses and nothing like the tallest.

My first quote is about Eldarin Men -- that's a general description, especially given that it notes Eldarin Kings and leaders were taller. The second quote refers to the normal height of the Eldar, especially the Noldor, at seven feet.

Aragorn was the tallest of the company, but Boromir, little less in height was broader and heavier in build.

I don't see that as a problem. Aragorn was probably 'at least' 6 foot 6 according to JRRT.

Aragorn, direct descendant of Elendil and his son Isildur, both of whom had been seven feet tall, must nonetheless have been a very tall man…, probably at least 6 ft. 6; and Boromir, of high Númenorean lineage, not much shorter (say 6 ft. 4).'

JRRT, late manuscript, The Lord of the Rings Reader's Companion, Hammond and scull, p. 107

So, the same source as the one about Eldarin men.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

Hammond and Scull published this information in their Reader's Companion to The Lord of the Rings.

I don't doubt that they come from the book, but wondering where did Tolkien write this. Is there any note in the book from where they got the reference.

Unfinished Tales describes Galadriel at 6 foot 4, but not the average Noldo that I'm aware of.

This is true, I was getting ahead of myself there and it was my mistake. I was cross referencing with Galadriel's title as Nerwen 'man-maiden', which implies she was the height of male Noldor's but there is no statement saying she was the average height for the Noldor, just one of their best athletes.

However, we do know Celeborn was tall for a Teleri elf. His name seems to have meant 'silver-tall'. Since he is 6'4 can assume the majority of the Sindar/Teleri were around 6ft. This fits in as I said with Legolas being shorter than Boromir.

My first quote is about Eldarin Men -- that's a general description, especially given that it notes Eldarin Kings and leaders were taller. The second quote refers to the normal height of the Eldar, especially the Noldor, at seven feet.

I have seen the second quote and it comes from Dwarves and Men, but it cannot be made to work with the text.

If Celeborn a tall and royal Sindar was around 6'4 then how could the average height for the Eldar be 7ft? The same applies for Legolas, who was of high Sindarin origin, but is shorter than Boromir.

I don't see that as a problem. Aragorn was probably 'at least' 6 foot 6 according to JRRT.

Yes, but Boromir is around 6'4 and taller than Legolas too. Boromir is also around the same height as Celeborn, who was tall for the Sindar. So again this indicates they must have been shorter than 7ft and closer to maybe 6ft.

So, the same source as the one about Eldarin men.

It would be nice if he indicated precisely where he got the quote from. I will have a look to see if there is anything else.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I don't doubt that they come from the book, but wondering where did Tolkien write this. Is there any note in the book from where they got the reference.

Tolkien wrote these descriptions in reaction to an illustration by Pauline Baynes. The full contents haven't been published yet, but some of it appears in Unfinished Tales and The History Of The Hobbit, along with Hammond and Scull's book.

This source was not much described in Unfinished Tales for example, because until relatively recently Pauline Baynes was still alive, and Tolkien's comments were inspired by his seeming dislike of part of her illustration.

However, we do know Celeborn was tall for a Teleri elf. His name seems to have meant 'silver-tall'. Since he is 6'4 can assume the majority of the Sindar/Teleri were around 6ft. This fits in as I said with Legolas being shorter than Boromir.

I don't think we have to drop all the way down to 6 feet. Another late note (published in Unfinished Tales), states that the 'Teleri were in general somewhat less in build and stature than the Noldor.'

I have seen the second quote and it comes from Dwarves and Men, but it cannot be made to work with the text.

If Celeborn a tall and royal Sindar was around 6'4 then how could the average height for the Eldar be 7ft? The same applies for Legolas, who was of high Sindarin origin, but is shorter than Boromir.

I would say that if Tolkien desired the Eldar to be normally around seven feet tall (if this was the later text compared to the 'PB description' that is), he probably would have written more specific descriptions of characters to fall in line with that.

Yes, but Boromir is around 6'4 and taller than Legolas too. Boromir is also around the same height as Celeborn, who was tall for the Sindar. So again this indicates they must have been shorter than 7ft and closer to maybe 6ft.

Tolkien was not bound to make Galadriel 6 foot 4 for example, and I agree, if Celeborn was of like height with her he would be too short if ODAM was in play. Technically Tolkien had only published that the Lady was no less tall than the Lord. But somewhat less [for the Teleri] could be 6 foot 2 or 3 compared to 6 foot 6 and taller, with Celeborn still taller than the average Teler but shorter than the average Noldo.

And JRRT published that Aragorn was the tallest of the Fellowship, as already noted (and something later about the Sea-kings of old as well). The description of Boromir might arguably imply that he was taller than all others in the Company excepting Aragorn, but I'm not sure this is necessarily certain...

... if I recall correctly the context is about ploughing through snow, which is why Boromir's broader build is noted too, but Legolas is not concerned here in any case, as he can run on top of the snow.

Tolkien noted that Legolas was as tall as a young tree

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

Tolkien wrote these descriptions in reaction to an illustration by Pauline Baynes. The full contents haven't been published yet, but some of it appears in Unfinished Tales and The History Of The Hobbit, along with Hammond and Scull's book.

This source was not much described in Unfinished Tales for example, because until relatively recently Pauline Baynes was still alive, and Tolkien's comments were inspired by his seeming dislike of part of her illustration.

Thanks for that.

I don't think we have to drop all the way down to 6 feet. Another late note (published in Unfinished Tales), states that the 'Teleri were in general somewhat less in build and stature than the Noldor.'

That's the same note where he says that Celeborn was tall for a Teleri and gives the meaning of his name. This is from a very late account of Galdriel/Celeborn's history.

Somewhat less in build is ambiguous, considering a little less in height for Boromir is aroudn 2 inches.

What we can be certain of is even a very tall Telerian Prince is only about the same height as the tallest of the Noldor women. This does indicate quite more than a couple of inches difference.

I would say that if Tolkien desired the Eldar to be normally around seven feet tall (if this was the later text compared to the 'PB description' that is), he probably would have written more specific descriptions of characters to fall in line with that.

This is true, nothing was put in print yet, but all the sources seem to have been written at the same time and the account in the Unfinished Tales is certainly the most detailed.

Tolkien was not bound to make Galadriel 6 foot 4 for example, and I agree, if Celeborn was of like height with her he would be too short if ODAM was in play. Technically Tolkien had only published that the Lady was no less tall than the Lord. But somewhat less [for the Teleri] could be 6 foot 2 or 3 compared to 6 foot 6 and taller, with Celeborn still taller than the average Teler but shorter than the average Noldo.

This is possible, there is no reason to go as low as 6ft, but is being just a couple of inches taller than the norm enough to be given the name praising your height?
I would say no.

As you said he could easily change Galadriel's height, but it seems the more detailed account.

And JRRT published that Aragorn was the tallest of the Fellowship, as already noted (and something later about the Sea-kings of old as well). The description of Boromir might arguably imply that he was taller than all others in the Company excepting Aragorn, but I'm not sure this is necessarily certain...

... if I recall correctly the context is about ploughing through snow, which is why Boromir's broader build is noted too, but Legolas is not concerned here in any case, as he can run on top of the snow.

Tolkien noted that Legolas was as tall as a young tree

Yes and he mentioned how Legolas was immensely strong too.

It's true that the particular passage strongly indicates, even very strongly indicates that Boromir was the second tallest, but it does not confirm this fact for certain.

Though one thing it does confirm is Aragorn and Boromir were stronger. Legolas appears to agree with him on this matter too, either that or he is being very lazy.

All this does confirm is that even after their waining the Numenoreans were stronger than the Sindar, but the Sindar as a whole are weaker than the Noldor.

However, the House of Hador are stronger than the Noldor Princes.

EDIT

Off topic, but it is interesting that Christopher Tolkien speculates that Galadriel and Celeborn may have been present when Feanor's sons sacked Doriath and actually played a part in helping Elwing escape. If this is the case then I wonder what Galadriel's feelings on Feanor was then.

[Mithalwen]

Wasn't Galadriel meant to be the tallest of three elven women? And celeborn is described as tall but they are neutrally to be the same height. Eomer is described by Legolas as very tall. Gets a bit meaningless.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Wasn't Galadriel meant to be the tallest of three elven women? And celeborn is described as tall but they are neutrally to be the same height. Eomer is described by Legolas as very tall. Gets a bit meaningless.

There are very few direct comparisons. Except Aragorn being the tallest in the Fellowship. Glorfindel and Elrond both being taller than Gandalf.

If Galadriel was man high for the Noldor at 6'4, then this would explain why she was the tallest of the Noldor women. Their average height probably being around 5'10 to 6'0. The Teleri as indicated by Legolas were probably slightly shorter than the average height of the Noldor. Maybe the average height for the Teleri was around 6'0 and thus Celeborn at 6'4 would be tall for a Teleri and the same height as Galadriel.

When the Exiles dwindled the Rangers were probably around the same height as the average Noldor. In Numenor they had been slightly taller maybe around 6'6 or so.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Wasn't Galadriel meant to be the tallest of three elven women? And celeborn is described as tall but they are neutrally to be the same height. Eomer is described by Legolas as very tall. Gets a bit meaningless.

I suppose if you take on the conceit that Lord of the Rings was written by a Hobbit then everyone is tall

I don't like the thought of Elves being 'seven foot tall' - makes me think of aliens...

[Mithalwen]

Yes there is that factor such as when Merry is tripped over by Elfhelm in the fog en route to minaa tirith and Elfhelm is described as tall and Merry eishes he was a tall rider of Rohan. Not clear at all if Elfhelm is tall for a Rohir or just seems tall because Merry is a Hobbit and the Rohirrimnare taller generally than the men of Bree that hobbits might be more familiar with.

There was some horrible eugenics experiment to breed tall warriors IIRC..Failed mo doubt because tall people lumber around due to the lack of oxygen at that altituee....