TIG XCIV– WHere the Stars Are Strange (Game thread)

[Galadriel55]

So the alcolyte is some kind of werebear. *sigh* May the victims of the Night's terror rest in peace.

Edit: xed with Nerwen and Lommy

[Nogrod]

So Rikae was the hunter, but if she was to be a logical-hunter by Night, then she didn't take Eruhen with her? So what happened?

Originally Posted by the narration

This was generally held to be a most touching act of loyalty, though there were those who, claiming to have seen a shadow moving on the curtain behind him, firmly believed he had been pushed.

It was all a great mystery.

Even if some of you dislike it a little excursion into the Acolyte might be in order? (Yeah, let's not discuss it all Day)

So the Acolyte makes her/his own kills? Every Night? (Werebear kind of person) That sounds a bit too devastating as there are already four wolves. But then again the fact that the Acolyte is not counted as either in the tallies might back this kind of interpretation... So is there actually a way we could turn the Acolyte to our side? I mean many people (myself included) were discussing about things like the Acolyte choosing or being given side in one or other way at some point, but is there actually any reason to believe that is the case in things Nerwen has written?

Or did Eruhen just sign off?


EDIT: X'd with everyone...

[Galadriel55]

This is something I wrote yesterday (last Night) after catching up on the game thread (you Europeans talk a lot). It's a pattern I noticed that did not look good not one bit to me. It's about Nog's "weird" (mark the vocabulary) change of mind regarding my outburst. I know it's lame to write an analysis about a discussion about you... but I really don't like this. IF YOU DON'T WANT TO GO THROUGH THE PILE OF "EVIDENCE", SKIP TO MY SUMMARY AT THE END.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Your reaction though, it was unexpected seeing from you, because it was like reading one of my rants. "If you suspect me then suspect me!" And really over something that's normal, "Hey Rikae, what do you think about sally?" I can understand boiling over frustrations, but that was an immediate, highly-dramatic reaction.

And this:


"If you suspect her, than say so," but honestly, you're just using the semantics over question-phrasing to defend your reaction as perhaps over-the-top, but an un-wolvish one. So, I'll say it. Looks suspicious.

Well, Boro doesn’t like it.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Galadriel looked a bit whimsy to begin with but her defence of herself looks pretty genuine.

And Nog’s ok with it.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

What bothers me about Boro is the way he painted G55 suspicious. To me her strong reaction to Rikae's question for Lottie looked very sincere indeed (as I said already back there). So Boro's attack looked to me like a wolf noticing a possible pray who has made herself vulnerable, and jumping for it. It's hard to see evil in a game, but it felt like a malvolent intent there.

And lookee – again.

#73 – Steve says I seem innocent so far.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

G55's outburst against Rikae feels pretty genuine to me, and I don't quite get what Boro thinks was so over-the-top about it - I mean, if she had the impression that Rikae was trying to suggest Lottie suspect her, being outraged is an understandable reaction; and as Rikae's post looks just like that on the surface, who's to blame her. (Only, knowing Rikae a bit, that would have been remarkably unsubtle.)

Pitchie agrees.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Well. Didn't look genuine to me. And perhaps I shouldn't look at it through my eyes, but I've done the same thing time and time again when I've been a wolf. Get too dramatic over the slightest of things. Not that G55 was faking being angry, but playing up being angry to hopefully get suspicion off her. As if her honor had been impugned. I've literally done the same thing, indignicantly objecting to people beating around the bush..."If you suspect me then suspect me!" stuff.

And her defense for the rant comes dow to semantics, not liking the way Rikae phrased the question to Lottie. Now tell me if you think overly-dramatic reactions to stuff like word definitions and the way questions are phrased is genuine?

In reply to Nog saying I sounded genuine. (Nog answers in #81 – and sticks to his original thought – and I’m putting this as a sidenote that’s not in chronological order)

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

G55 jumps, but it seems genuine and I won't hold it against her this time, realising it's probably pretty typical of her.

Once again. Up to now, Boro is alone in suspecting me over the outburst. But along comes Shasta…

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

G55's post #39 is an incredible overreaction (and yes, that's coming from me, no one's allowed to laugh .) But really, asking someone what they think of you isn't tantamount to "here, make this point against this person for me."

Overreaction, overdramatic. Supports Boro in this.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

...You're kidding. Who are you and what have you done with Nogrod?! That's so unlike what you'd normally say that I'm almost forced to look for a reason why you'd be protecting G55.

Shasta continues to echo Boro, this time in asking Nog why he thinks the outburst was genuine. He says Pitch is ok with thinking so, but not Nog (well, duh, they are different!).

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Leaning Innocent:
Boro - Two major reasons: one, I agree with him regarding G55; two, he's getting what seems to be a rather large amount of suspicion from people I'm currently suspicious of.

...

Leaning Guilty:
G55 - I was fine with her until she exploded earlier. After that, I felt like her clarification of said explosion was basically used to make people more confident of her innocence ("A wolf wouldn't act like that," etc).

Nogrod - I admit, most of the reason he's in this category is his apparent connection to G55, whom I also find suspicious. His reaction to and subsequent defense of her was so incredibly counter to normal Nogrod that I just can't see that being his real thoughts on the matter.

My, he’s serious.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

G55 - doesn't really sit right with me, but this may well be knee-jerk.

Lommy decides I'm suspicious enough to be her votee. This is unrelated to the outburst, but it does affect the general mood.

Up to this point everyone holds their original opinion (excepting possibly the posts at the very beginning of the Day – much has changed since, and there’s good reason for opinions to change, so I’m not counting those).

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So Eruhen's vote looks like bandwagoning in major scale and G55's a possible one. Actually, I found an interesting point from back there That is said after she speculates whether Lottie or Boro might be wolves. Finally she decides to vote Lommy So with the content "there has been some talk about" but which she is not opening up in any way...

I might be getting second thoughts about the sincerity of her outburst back there as this looks much like a wolf in trouble trying to find someone to vote.

And Nog does a Legate-180. Why all of a sudden? Because there's more support for this option at the moment?

There certainly is support for lynching me. See: Legate - #125, Lommy - #126 and #129. And Nog’s post again:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

On other thoughts. Despite my initial gut feeling about G55's outburst I'd say she's quite high on my list.

Legate @ #134 briefly, Lommy @ #136

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I might vote for G55 or Boro, possibly Eruhen.

Or then I might go after Shasta and vote Bom.

Nog ends up voting Bom (#148). And at the very end of the Day:

Originally Posted by Nog

G55 and Boro do post and they can be read - and Eruhen has said all the time he was busy - so he'll have a chance to explain him toMorrow. So I think we are making a decent decision.

Apologies for so many quotes, but now you know I’m not making this up. To shorten the post instead of quoting everything I just gave references to the more general things.

What bothers me is Nog’s flipfloppiness (does this run in the family? ). In all seriousness, though – he starts out standing his ground against Boro, and keeps this up while the general mood is leaning towards me being innocent (Boro is clearly outnumbered). But then Shasta consistently and persistently sides with Boro, and Lommy joins in saying I’m not that shiny. And only now Nog has second thoughts about my outburst, and decides that it didn’t actually look good, and that my vote wasn’t well-explained either, and all that. And as the support for this keeps up, he repeats it more often.

Though when the village doesn’t actually end up lynching me, he backs off and says that it’s better that Bom is lynched.

While writing this, I had some thoughts that maybe the Empress put a cobbler in the game accidentally. I mean, I've never played with Nogwolf, but from what I heard he's as subtle as he could get. Did he expect that such an obvious thing would go unnoticed? And still, I don't think he'd flipflop like that as an innocent either.

Boro and Shasta claim that the "weird" thing is that he actually thought me innocent at first. I don't get why that's weird, but I guess it's just not like him to support emotional outbursts. And this is another thing.

Nog, you're #1 on my suspicion list.



And saying that, my participation will be very limited toDay - hence I wrote this last Night, to save time and give you time to think.

[Thinlómien]

Or perhaps the acolyte murders someone on Night2 and assumes their role. I'm 90% sure we don't have a werebear-type guy among us since we already have four wolves.

(now going, seriously...)


edit: xed with Gal

[Thinlómien]

And saying that, my participation will be very limited toDay - hence I wrote this last Night, to save time and give you time to think.

Sure, but I sill don't like the fact you were so sure about your survival that you wrote that overNight. Also, I'll let Nogrod answer for himself but to me his change of opinion yesterDay looked like genuine unsure rethinking (whether it was innocent or a wolf doing the rethinking). Now this is the last time I say I'm going. See you guys later.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Not telling.

Great

Okay, I have no idea about this, normally I would regard it as modfire (on personal request, perhaps?), but the mystery air is annoying. I don't believe in any Werebear - what Lommy said: it wouldn't make any sense. This:

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Or perhaps the acolyte murders someone on Night2 and assumes their role. I'm 90% sure we don't have a werebear-type guy among us since we already have four wolves.

actually sounds plausible; but I would not draw too many conclusions. I think maybe we can leave this be for now and see what happens the next Night. Because I am not sure if we can actually get anything right now from speculating about it - we probably can't figure out anything certain, and we probably won't be able to use the information in any way. I think after next Night or narration we might be wiser. At least I don't think the world will crumble upon us if we don't know what the Angband was it about for one more day (and if it does, again, I think we can't really do much about it anyway).

It is at least clear (given that the Hunter is logical by Night according to the rules) that Eruhen wasn't Rikae's hunting pick.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

And Nog does a Legate-180. Why all of a sudden? Because there's more support for this option at the moment?

Well, I can see where you are coming from, but it isn't like that he would straightaway turn his opinion on the outburst itself - in the part you quote he says the reason for his suspicion of you is your vote. Which was also what made for example me consider you more, too. But yes, it might seem a bit sinister.

Shall be still around later with more...

EDIT: x-ed with Lommy. Haha.

[Pomegranate]

To me, it would seem from the narration, that Eruhen's death was indeed a mystery, and if that be the case, perhaps linked to the acolyte. Leaving it open like that would suggest that there's something going on in the palace that we don't know about, and so far, acolyte is the most obvious guess to that.

Looking into Rikae is something that definitely needs to be done. However, we should also look into Bom's lynch yesterday. True, there was reason enough for any annoyed goodie to vote for him, but it is pretty certain that there's wolves there as well, excited about the easy ordo-lynch. The votes from yesterday, in order of casting:

Greenie -> Boro
Lottie ->Lommy
Bom ->Bom
G55->Lommy (2)
Inzil->Eonwe
Rikae->Inzil
Sally->Eonwe
Eru->Lommy (3)
Shasta->Bom (2)
Legate->Bom (3)
Nogrod->Bom (4)
Eonwe->Bom (5)
Lommy->Bom (6)
Pitch->Eonwe (2)
Pom->Legate

Now, as everyone kept saying yesterNight (can you put it like that?) Shasta was the one to start the actual bandwaggon against Bom, after suspecting around. However, it's worth noticing that he wasn't the first one to suggest it, even though he was the first to actually give his vote to Bom. First one was Nogrod.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

If anyone is willing to help Bom with his suicide I'd be happy to lend a hand there.

So, we ranted too little about these no-trace votes (or we should have made the rant wider). I mean a self vote is as bad as a declared random vote in that they result in the same: there's no way of saying whom the person really wished to vote for (or whom he didn't want to vote) - or whom he faked wishing to vote for or not to vote for. Declared intentions concerning one's votes + the votes themselves are the bread and butter of this game, voting randomly or self-voting is effectively denying others the info. And thus something the wolves would love to hide in if it was looked on as having no consequences. Therefore I'm actually half-serious in proposing we lynch Bom toDay.

The other thing that makes me half-serious with it, is what Bom has actually posted.

(#113)

During his post he actually kind of talked himself out of it, but somehow it seemed more that he was giving the bait and hoping someone would go with it. And when Shasta did decide that he wants Bom lynched, Nogrod started to show his uncertainty, but then decided to go for Bom when there was a lot of people after him. His vote was the one which raised Bom’s votes higher than Lommy’s.

Continuing in a bit, this was the most striking thing for me, now hunting for more.

x/ed with everyone after Nerwen's #160

[Nogrod]

Is it a totally alien concept to you G55 that people can change their minds, especially if they are given reasons for it? (I know there are people who stick to their beliefs whatever the case, or even if reality proves them wrong time after time, but that is a discussion on politics and religion I'm not willing to engage here.)

Well, anyway, you actually do quote my post where I explain my change of heart. I mean the sudden Lommywagon did raise some eyebrows and when I read your post where you explained your... well what could it be, change of heart (? ) to suddenly suspect Lommy when she started gathering suspicion... well that made me suspect you - and thus to reconsider the innocence of your outburst as well.

It was not only the fact that you suddenly jumped on the fast-emerging Lommy-train, but the way you did it. (Explained in my #122)

Heh, I saw Lommy posted about you confidence of being alive, to write such a strong "defence by attack" I'd say, so I'm not going to say anything more about it.


Okay. I also have a host of things to do, but will take a quick look at Rikae before I go.


EDIT: X'd with a few it seems

[Pitchwife]

Three of us dead already, and the hunter among them? Blargh.

I'll be getting to Rikae in a moment, but first things first: that was one of the most useless D1 lynches ever.

It's not like I can't empathize to some degree with being annoyed by Bom and wanting to set an example, but what exactly was that supposed to accomplish? I mean, you said it yourselves:

Originally Posted by Legate

Bom's death won't, after all, show much (given that his interactions with people are... close to nil).

and

Originally Posted by Nog

The chances he's a wolf are what the pure chances are 4/16

and you still decide he's the best lynch choice? After ranting at such length against random votes? How was picking Bom any better?

Yes, I know, lynch a submarine on D1 if there's no better choice, and if it has to be done, better now than later, but after all of yesterDay's controversy, was there really no better choice?

Or was there a wolf getting heat who had to be saved?

Originally Posted by Pom

Shasta was the one to start the actual bandwaggon against Bom, after suspecting around. However, it's worth noticing that he wasn't the first one to suggest it, even though he was the first to actually give his vote to Bom. First one was Nogrod.

That's actually a good find.

Originally Posted by Pom

His vote was the one which raised Bom’s votes higher than Lommy’s.

No, your vote list is confused there; Eönwë's vote was the fourth for Bom and came before Nog's.

[Nogrod]

So looking after what might have made the wolves pick Rikae... (I'm only looking at those posts where she voices suspicion or dissatisfaction to some as I don't have time for a "full analysis")

Originally Posted by Rikae #27

I don't much care for Inzil and Bom's empty posts, Gal's banter... which does look odd... and Green's post that points out its oddness. Yep, I contradict myself, I contain multitudes, etc.

Originally Posted by Rikae #32

Inzil, as I said, I agree with Legate. Posts that demand people work on catching wolves, rather than work on it themselves, are empty posts.

Originally Posted by Rikae #36

If you're looking for people who aren't making useful posts, Lottie, I wonder: what do you think of Galadriel55?

Originally Posted by RIkae #42

I'm well aware of the risk of lynching an innocent who happens to look "odd" on day one. In fact, I'd suggest it may be more logical to leave Inzil alone for toDay precisely because he has made himself a target.

Galadriel, I'm sorry if I offended you. I can be insensitive at times. However, if you'll look again at my post, it implies just as much about Lottie and her consistency as it does about you, and as for

... I did.

Originally Posted by Rikae #53

Now Inzil, come out and claim what you're trying to claim so we can all see how implausible it really is!

Originally Posted by Rikae #61

did Inzil really join Lottie's "suspicion" (which I took as a joke) of Pitch for his "manage to", or no? I don't see where he did. Where is this coming from, otherwise?

Also, I'd like to point out that if Nogrod is innocent he will decide that I'm guilty at some point and that I have some complicated scheme up my sleeve that only Nogrod could invent.
If he fails to do so, I'll suspect him.

Originally Posted by Rikae #71

Greenie's vote for Boro looks more or less ok to me, precisely because it is so out-of-the-blue and gut-feelingish, if you get what I mean. Not to say that it's wabbit season or anything, but Greenie herself seems all right.

Eönwë is sort of blending into the background, and he seems to be doing it by hanging around in the thicket of meta-discussion, poking at multiple people while refraining from singling anyone out in a way that might attract too much attention. I'm going to keep my eye on him.

Originally Posted by Rikae #78

Haha, I just realized I mistook a coyote for a wabbit... that could be a dangerous mistake!

Originally Posted by Rikae #103

I'm going to bed and unlikely to be back again before DL, so I'm going to be with my original suspicion... I was going to vote for someone else, but the recent posts from

++Inzil

have a bad vibe to them, as if he's confident that he shifted the focus and can see one of the other suspects lynched. An innocent who dodged suspicion might be relieved, but would still be concerned about placing his own vote correctly and finding the actual wolves, and the tone of his posts seems off in light of that. In addition to my earlier suspicions it puts him in the lead.

Inzil clearly bears the brunt of her suspicion - and the vote in the end (even and maybe importantly notwithstanding that she says she was going to vote someone else!). She suspects Eönwë somewhat (only makes one point in one post though), seems to be engaged with Lottie and is pretty nasty with G55.

And then there is this odd thing about wabbits and coyotes & liking Greenie's vote on Boro - which whatever it means seems to suggest something about Boro.

So if someone felt Rikae was a threath enough to kill her it might have been Zil, Boro, or looking at how G55 reacts to things, then her (although she should have packmates to talk sense to her not to react like that). Or then someone just wished it to look that way.


EDIT: X'd with Pitch

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

first things first: that was one of the most useless D1 lynches ever.

The owl of Minerva flies after dusk... It's always easy to be wise on hindsight.

On another issue, why is it that I suggested lynching Bom a find (Pom) or a good find (Pitch)? *Bom-Pom*

That's not exactly a secret. And I think I speculated on that possibility even earlier. And as Pom says correctly, I almost talked myself out of it, but then the voting kind of did the choice for me.

I was willing to discuss with the people around then (about 15 minutes before the DL or something) of the possibilities between Bom, Boro and G55 but had to take a phone-call from my colleague and when I came back people were already voting for Bom which kind of made it futile to vote differently as I had nothing against Lommy.

Just go and check.

Okay. Off now for a while.

[Pomegranate]

Oh, you’re right, Pitch. Though the vote is still in the line of the votes that ensured Bom’s lynch, not too far from the tie yet. But for further reference, Eonwe’s vote was fourth and Nogrod’s vote was fifth.

And then there’s Legate. Last night, I was convinced enough by Shasta’s notifications that I did start suspecting him more than anyone else. I’m not too convinced about Shasta either, but he did go through the messages pretty throughoutly, and especially since I had no previous opinion on Legate, I felt it was worth checking out. And Legate, unlike some others mentioned, did have a habit of sticking into his opinions. First this whole issue with Inzil, which to me seems more his making than Inzil’s. He keeps repeating the same point over and over, and over an issue after all as minor as one “This is not what we’re supposed to be doing, let’s do something else”. I can’t see that comment of Inzil's as too fishy. It feels like something all of us must've done at some point, giving a relatively useless message at the beginning of the first day.

After that he discovers Boro. After Greenie posted her vote and her suspicions, Legate gets to that as well. After I say that I agree, he’s surprised by my sharpness and says that he agrees with me, even though it was basically me agreeing with him in my post. It feels like he wants to keep the impression there’s more people noticing the same thing than there actually is. He keeps commenting on Boro until the end of the day, on this same niceness-reason. He says he would like to get him lynched. But then, when Nogrod mentions G55, he decides that she’s worth his attention as well, and keeps bringing her up as one of his major suspects. And then he follows Shasta on voting for Bom, even though he says he would like to vote for his suspects since for once he has such. He was the second person (not counting Bom himself) to go to the bandwagon, after Shasta. Boro was not far behind. Was it really so much easier to go with such an – as Pitch comments – invisible vote? Was it worth it? Or was it just that it didn’t matter which ordo you ended up killing?

That being said, I don’t say I’d trust Boro or G55 either. But Legate is way more suspicious, Boro seems just not like himself, and I haven't yet given much thought to G55 yet.

x/ed with Nog's second.

[Pomegranate]

Nog, it's not a secret, but somehow Shasta managed to get all the "glory" of the lynch even though you were the one who started more or less seriously thinking about the choice. So it was worth mentioning, when going through the people who were driving Bom's lynch. You planted the idea, then let someone else grab it and drive it forward while you were hiding more in the background.

[Pitchwife]

Now, Rikae.

An interesting detail is where she says

Originally Posted by Rikae #42

it may be more logical to leave Inzil alone for toDay precisely because he has made himself a target.

(underlining mine). Did someone read that as a hunter hint?

Her response to G55's tantrum actually sounds to me like she was satisfied with the response she got ("...I did").

Although she suggested leaving Zil be, she ended up voting him; he was clearly her #1 suspect and thus, I think, her most likely hunting pick - which makes me doubt that he had a hand in killing her, it would have been rather suicidal.

I'm confused by the whole wabbit/coyote thing. The coyote looks like a reference to Boro's avie, but what's a wabbit anyway? *googles*

Originally Posted by wikipedia

A wabbit is a type of self-replicating computer program. Unlike viruses, wabbits do not infect host programs or documents. Unlike worms, wabbits do not use network capabilities of computers to spread. Instead, a wabbit repeatedly replicates itself on a local computer. Wabbits can be programmed to have (malicious) side effects.[1] An example of a wabbit is a fork bomb. The name "wabbit" is probably derived from Elmer Fudd's derhotic pronunciation of 'rabbit' in the Warner Brothers cartoons that featured him and Bugs Bunny. Like rabbits, these programs have an ability to multiply quickly.

So, a sort of malware, apparently. Could be code for wolves? Or was she referring to the cartoons only (IIRC, Boro's coyote figures in those too, right?)? What the blazes is she trying to tell us here?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The owl of Minerva flies after dusk... It's always easy to be wise on hindsight.

If I hadn't come online late and been busy writing my own voting post while the Bom-votes piled up, you can bet I'd have said as much yesterEve. But of course you have only my word for that, so yeah, well.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

On another issue, why is it that I suggested lynching Bom a find (Pom) or a good find (Pitch)?

Because it does make a difference whether Shasta started the whole thing by himself or took the lead from you, doesn't it? Pom says it better than I can.

[Inziladun]

First off, I'm amused by people yesterDay commenting on me being "weird". For me, that's normal.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

So the alcolyte is some kind of werebear. *sigh* May the victims of the Night's terror rest in peace.

If so, that makes it a lot tougher. Bears are always harder to spot, since they have no loyalty to anyone, and have a vested interest in killing wolves. I don't see much we can do about it, at any rate.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And then there is this odd thing about wabbits and coyotes & liking Greenie's vote on Boro - which whatever it means seems to suggest something about Boro.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I'm confused by the whole wabbit/coyote thing. The coyote looks like a reference to Boro's avie, but what's a wabbit anyway? *googles*

So, a sort of malware, apparently. Could be code for wolves? Or was she referring to the cartoons only (IIRC, Boro's coyote figures in those too, right?)? What the blazes is she trying to tell us here?

Yes, Elmer Fudd hunts wabbits, but the Coyote hunts the Roadrunner. Was Rikae trying to bait the wolves into thinking she was the Seer, who had dreamed Boro? But that would have meant she would have hunted Boro, and obviously, he's still with us. I don't know.

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

And then there’s Legate. Last night, I was convinced enough by Shasta’s notifications that I did start suspecting him more than anyone else. I’m not too convinced about Shasta either, but he did go through the messages pretty throughoutly, and especially since I had no previous opinion on Legate, I felt it was worth checking out. And Legate, unlike some others mentioned, did have a habit of sticking into his opinions. First this whole issue with Inzil, which to me seems more his making than Inzil’s. He keeps repeating the same point over and over, and over an issue after all as minor as one “This is not what we’re supposed to be doing, let’s do something else”. I can’t see that comment of Inzil's as too fishy. It feels like something all of us must've done at some point, giving a relatively useless message at the beginning of the first day.

After all Legate's focus on me yesterDay. he went and voted for Bom. So did Eönwë, who had previously said I would be his likely vote, and offered no reason for voting Bom, other than he didn't want to vote Lommy. Why didn't either of them vote for me, instead of going after Bom? Yes, believe me, I know Bom's antics like that can be frustrating. It still looks like a very easy bandwagon, though.

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

That being said, I don’t say I’d trust Boro or G55 either. But Legate is way more suspicious, Boro seems just not like himself, and I haven't yet given much thought to G55 yet.

Boro is certainly not his usual aggressive wolf-hunting self. What that means, and whether there is an RL factor, I'm not sure.

Steve and Legate worry me as well.

[Boromir88]

For some unknown reason I was simply out of it all Day 1. Exhausted and wound up knocking out cold. I wasn't feeling ill, and nothing was the matter, just felt mentally not present, unable to comprehend/take in anything I was read, and why Pom and others likely noticed it wasn't my usual self. And all I could do was say "nope, you're right"...which seemed to just add on to the problem?

But good news I'm feeling refreshed and actually with-a-brain today. Not happy on what the heck is going on with the Eruhen/Acolyte stuff here, but refreshed and thus can promise to do better today.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So if someone felt Rikae was a threath enough to kill her it might have been Zil, Boro, or looking at how G55 reacts to things, then her (although she should have packmates to talk sense to her not to react like that). Or then someone just wished it to look that way.

It for certain wasn't a trailless kill. Rikae was in the thick of most of the action and pretty blunt with her opinions on people. Did the wolves think they were going after the seer then? Or perhaps a possible danger, simply because she was heavily involved and killing her to frame one of her suspects?

If they had the seer in mind when killing Rikae, I understand how it would point to Inzil, G55, and Eonwe...but no idea how Nog, you're lumping me in there? The wabbit/coyote stuff? In hindsight, it's an obvious clue, one that I noticed yesterday, but didn't say anything because I assumed Rikae would know I would pick up on it. Wile E. Coyote = my avvie, because I was a huge Looney Tunes fan as a kid and Wile E was my fav. Elmer Fudd, another Looney Tunes was always hunting Bugs Bunny, but pronounced his r's as w's, "wascally wabbit" being a famous Fudd saying. So, the coyote/wabbit was an obvious hint, one which Rikae would certainly know I would notice, "I'm leaving a Fudd clue = I'm the hunter."

If it was to set up a lynch today, that would suggest there was a wolf under some considerable pressure/threat yesterday and the wolves are hoping to redirect focus onto others. As far as the votes shook out, this would point to Lommy and possibly Eonwe...but there was such a bandwagon for Bom it's hard to make out anything about the others who've received votes. People dropping Day 1 suspicion is a fairly natural occurance because there is no evidence. So, I can't see why Eonwe or Lommy would feel like threatened wolves simply because of some votes.

Wolves still need to manufacture and manipulate the situation to create completely false suspicions. And the best way to do that is their kill. So, it certainly doesn't have to be an "either/or" here. Wolves saw Rikae as a threat/gifted and as a means to manipulate the suspicions/lynch today.

I quite like G55 so far today, a lot more than yesterday...Yesterday I thought her rant was mainly as a means to say "I'm angry! And since I'm angry/ranty I have to be an innocent." But today she's right into the action, and not playing the dramatic "I know 4 wolves who will want to use this to get me lynched" pity-me card. I'll look strongly at Nogrod today, because my notes from yesterday are quite scant on him. "Nog's all over the place and seems to not want to be a decision-maker."

Nog being scatter-brained, and piling on way too much work that he feels he has to do is quite normal, but he seemed yesterday far too willing to delegate responsibility/decisions to other people. Not that Nog doesn't consider a sort of community-input, when it come to voting at the DL, but he's usually more in-front/leading with his options, and then does the democratic approach.

Pitch's posting today is starting to make me wary of him (shall explain later) and from yesterday Lommy and Lottie (shall also explain once I'm back).

Edit: crossed with Inzil

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

Now, as everyone kept saying yesterNight (can you put it like that?) Shasta was the one to start the actual bandwaggon against Bom, after suspecting around. However, it's worth noticing that he wasn't the first one to suggest it, even though he was the first to actually give his vote to Bom. First one was Nogrod.
(#113)

During his post he actually kind of talked himself out of it, but somehow it seemed more that he was giving the bait and hoping someone would go with it.

I wouldn't call it "baiting". That's rather normal - and I think it does not sound like "serious wish to lynch Bom", rather really just "anger ventilation", which is understandable.

Though some things about his willingness to flip etc. have merit, I would not lynch him purely based on this. This particular thing is rather understandable as normal reaction, I would say.

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

And then there’s Legate. (...) First this whole issue with Inzil, which to me seems more his making than Inzil’s. He keeps repeating the same point over and over, and over an issue after all as minor as one “This is not what we’re supposed to be doing, let’s do something else”. I can’t see that comment of Inzil's as too fishy. It feels like something all of us must've done at some point, giving a relatively useless message at the beginning of the first day.

Now wait a second, I never said "fishy". It was never a suspicion, mind you. I get the feeling the whole Legate-Zil debate is getting completely out of its original meaning in people's interpretation and reinterpretation of it. Zil says the same thing (see below) by talking about me "suspecting" him, but I never did! (okay, later during the day I did a bit, but only because of his reaction, certainly NOT because of the matter of the fact that Zil said "let's hunt wolves instead of talking about acolyte") So to put this back to its proper lines, what it was, in other words: yes, the Legate-Inzil issue took a lot of attention during the Day, but it did NOT have anything to do with suspicion. Also I think if other people hadn't started discussing it so vehemently themselves, it would have been just an episode concerning CLARIFICATION of one's actions (not suspicion!!). Also, note that my continuous questions to Inzil were only one issue, one remark at the fringe (in the matter of importance) of my posts, which otherwise were talking about something else.

So repeating this for the last time, the issue was (narrated as I saw it back then): Zil requested from others to start "hunting wolves" yet didn't act on it himself, so I questioned that behavior, he did not react, I asked him again, he replied with the same line as in start which did not explain anything (at least to me back then), and so on, back and forth something like four times. I kept asking him only because he had not answered my question. Now he has clarified it to me by the end of yesterDay, so we're somewhere else now. But as for the origin of the discussion, what I just said.

So as to this,

Originally Posted by Inziladun

After all Legate's focus on me yesterDay. he went and voted for Bom.

There was maybe "focus", but never suspicion as strong to vote you. I had better suspects than Bom, but you were not among them. I could have voted Boro, for instance - later I basically decided that it's still fine to lynch Bom, especially on first Day, and Pitch, you have in fact summed it up:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Yes, I know, lynch a submarine on D1 if there's no better choice, and if it has to be done, better now than later,

That's basically it, I guess. This argument eventually prevailed in my mind as in the others', probably, over the anyway uncertain suspicions we might have had (and a large part of it was probably when it got rolling, which was probably mostly my doing, I humbly confess, the decisive moment - but really, I don't regret it, even in retrospect. Of course killing a Wolf would have been much better, but for Day 1, at that moment, it was a right choice, I would have probably done it again). The main basis of my vote was indeed this "if not toDay, then never" and "we can still lynch Boro tomorrow".

Which is, btw, what I shall be looking at toDay, along with Gal, as I promised.

Speaking of this all, it of course does not rule out the interior motives of some people who voted Bom, like Pitch said:

Originally Posted by Pitch

Or was there a wolf getting heat who had to be saved?

The question is who would that be - Lommy is the most logical option; the other one something like Boro or Gal or Lottie or whoknowswhat else was teoretically threatened...

But the thing is, it was basically really orchestrated by Shasta. At least from my POV, if he had not pointed it out so decisively, I wouldn't have considered voting Bom, most likely. And so basically the only logical explanation would be that Shastawolf would come up with this brilliant scheme to turn the whole village away from voting some fellow Wolf by proposing a completely new lynch. It would have been brilliant scheme, hats off to Roy Harper, but somehow I'd find it really really really bold and such things don't usually happen.

EDIT: x-ed with Boro... ugh, I've been writing this for an hour (okay, it was interrupted several times for minutes... but now I have to do also other stuff, so shall be back later)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

In hindsight, it's an obvious clue, one that I noticed yesterday, but didn't say anything because I assumed Rikae would know I would pick up on it. Wile E. Coyote = my avvie, because I was a huge Looney Tunes fan as a kid and Wile E was my fav. Elmer Fudd, another Looney Tunes was always hunting Bugs Bunny, but pronounced his r's as w's, "wascally wabbit" being a famous Fudd saying. So, the coyote/wabbit was an obvious hint, one which Rikae would certainly know I would notice, "I'm leaving a Fudd clue = I'm the hunter."

Ah, of course. That would make sense (they aired the Looney Tunes even here when I was small, so I know who the folks are). I also didn't get that remark at all first, though. The question is why would Rikae give the hint specifically like that because she would know Boro would likely know that (and why would she want to tell him of all people?). Unless she assumed everyone knows the show (but then again, the WWs would also know). I mean, after all, why would a Hunter give hints? Unless she had wanted to bait the WWs into targeting her while she targeted someone she thought was one of them. Then again, the Wolves would do that only under the circumstances they thought she is NOT targeting one of them, but then again, if they would know she knows they know she whatever... no, does not make any sense (try to think about it, it's messy and does not make any sense). Simply put: I don't understand why Hunter should give clues.

Originally Posted by Boro

If it was to set up a lynch today, that would suggest there was a wolf under some considerable pressure/threat yesterday and the wolves are hoping to redirect focus onto others. As far as the votes shook out, this would point to Lommy and possibly Eonwe...but there was such a bandwagon for Bom it's hard to make out anything about the others who've received votes. People dropping Day 1 suspicion is a fairly natural occurance because there is no evidence. So, I can't see why Eonwe or Lommy would feel like threatened wolves simply because of some votes.

Okay, just (if you don't have anything better to do, it's not necessary, I might try to cope on my own): could you please somehow rephrase, say it again or explain it a bit more? I didn't quite get the meaning of this paraghraph. What do you mean: who would set up whom and how, most importantly?

Otherwise, Boro DOES indeed look more his usual self toDay, more thinking, more sharp, more "normal" - maybe he was really just "out of his mind" (or how should I call it ) yesterDay, I shall watch him further, though - I would like to see as much as I can.

[Pomegranate]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I wouldn't call it "baiting". That's rather normal - and I think it does not sound like "serious wish to lynch Bom", rather really just "anger ventilation", which is understandable.

Though Nogrod kept saying he's semi-serious, instead of just ranting around. And isn't that exactly what baiting is (at least that's how it would sound to me, unless you use it with slightly different definition) - not a serious wish to lynch someone (I wouldn't call Shasta's actions baiting) but some kind of reminder, "hey, you know, then there's this one... anyone? Feel like continuing this discussion?"

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Now wait a second, I never said "fishy". It was never a suspicion, mind you.

a) I didn't say you suspected, I said I didn't see that comment as fishy and
b) #44

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Somewhat fishy: - -
Inzil - This is not in fact suspicion (it's more like that what I've talked about in the beginning of this post), I simply don't understand

So you actually used exactly that term yourself.

And although you want to concentrate on the accusations about Legate-Inzil -issue, that is far from being the only thing I said about you. You went for anyone someone else suggested - except Lommy. Inzil was the one that you found yourself, correct, but then you picked up Boro from Greenie's idea and pursued that with some enthusiasm for a while, until you realised you couldn't get people to back it, and then went on with Nog about G55.

And Boro, nice to hear you sounding more like yourself already

x/ed with Legate's second

[Pomegranate]

And how I understood Boro's paragraph was that "If the night-kill was such as it was in order to set up today's lynch". That is, if the wolves killed Rikae so that they could use that to move the discussion to someone else than the suspects yesterDay, with "Hey, this guy would've had a reason to kill Rikae!"

Okay, I don't know if that was any clearer... Anyways, I'm off for food and some dancing, will be back somewhat later. And I'm going to have to vote early toDay, I'll be travelling for the last four hours or so of the day (and preferably sleeping before that, but we'll see).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Pomegranate

Though Nogrod kept saying he's semi-serious, instead of just ranting around. And isn't that exactly what baiting is (at least that's how it would sound to me, unless you use it with slightly different definition) - not a serious wish to lynch someone (I wouldn't call Shasta's actions baiting) but some kind of reminder, "hey, you know, then there's this one... anyone? Feel like continuing this discussion?"

Mhm - generally, baiting works more along the lines of "(insert several paraghraphs about various issues) --- Also, I think XY seems a bit strange with this and that. I am not sure if it is something, but it might be. Maybe we should look at it." This was a bit too outright (and said in the tone of sort of-exaggeration) in order for it to be baiting.

a) I didn't say you suspected, I said I didn't see that comment as fishy and

Well, "fishy" to me is used in the context of suspecting people. Okay, I see, I have used that in the post 44 as the general "headline" of the section of the weirdest people around, but that was generalizing; I said in the post itself, as you can read there, that I don't in fact suspect Inzil.

And although you want to concentrate on the accusations about Legate-Inzil -issue, that is far from being the only thing I said about you. You went for anyone someone else suggested - except Lommy. Inzil was the one that you found yourself, correct, but then you picked up Boro from Greenie's idea and pursued that with some enthusiasm for a while, until you realised you couldn't get people to back it, and then went on with Nog about G55.

Strong words once again, but I would also ask you to reconsider looking at it also from a different perspective. Also, I came up with Boro after seeing he was really acting non-innocentBoro-ishly, and later you followed on what I had said about him. I did not "realise I could not get people to back it", I continued having him as my top suspect, as you can read yourself (before I finally decided to vote Bom). I considered G55 after her vote, but I was saying from the beginning that I would not probably vote her on that day, but keep her for later. If I really wanted to e.g. save Lommy, I would not have split opinions (and votes!) in that way - stirring up suspicion of G55 and at the same time not wishing to vote her myself. Also, I had noted some (though just little) suspicious stuff about her already earlier.

[Nogrod]

Lommy and Greenie are at my place and we have two laptops - and we're also intent in doing some other stuff but werewolf tonight, so our activity will be somewhat reduced and scanty this evening (RL).

[A Little Green]

First off - Lommy confuses me a lot at the moment.

Originally Posted by Lommy, underlining mine

I can understand Lottie, who's been suspecting me quite consistently (although misguidedly), an even G55 follows a sort of line of thought but Eruhen? Where did that come from? That was pure bandwagoning, methinks.

This looked fishy to me, the need to emphasize her own innocence in a context where it wasn't called for. Some players do that all the time, but I don't think Lommy is one of those so it struck me as odd. On the other hand, the following

Originally Posted by Lommy

This quote strikes me as terribly self-conscious. Why say "I've said very little about her" instead of "I have made very few suspicious observations of her on my own"? Innocents tend to keep track on what they have thought about others, wolves what they have said about others. I have to check the context of this because it basically rockets G55 towards the top of my suspicion list if the context doesn't clarify anything!

looked quite okay to me, a sharp sort of point I'm not sure a wolf would come up with.

Originally Posted by Pitch

Did someone read that as a hunter hint?

A Hunter hint? Why on earth would a Hunter leave hints?

Originally Posted by Legate

But the thing is, it was basically really orchestrated by Shasta. At least from my POV, if he had not pointed it out so decisively, I wouldn't have considered voting Bom, most likely. And so basically the only logical explanation would be that Shastawolf would come up with this brilliant scheme to turn the whole village away from voting some fellow Wolf by proposing a completely new lynch. It would have been brilliant scheme, hats off to Roy Harper, but somehow I'd find it really really really bold and such things don't usually happen.

Err- what? Not entirely sure I get this point, or rather, I get the point all right but didn't get the framework. Anyhow, yes, if someone started it, I'd say it was Shasta, regardless of that Nogrod suggested it first. I know Shasta is brilliant as a wolf and I wouldn't put something like this past him, but nothing really points that way in my opinion. Unless he and Lommy are in cahoots, but I've not seen anything that would really support that, either. I'm more curious about Eonwe.

[Nogrod]

Just a few thoughts for now.

Thinking about it again has led me to this kind of thoughts:
- Rikae was a logical hunter.
- As can be read from the tally, Eruhen was an ordo and thus not hunted down by Rikae.
- So no hunter-kill taking place means she was not hunting any of the four wolves.

So... if she hunted Inzil or Boro (two that would have seen most likely by what happened yesterDay), then she failed aka. the one she hunted is not a wolf.

Now it is also quite possible - and maybe even probable - that being the crafty player she was, she was not hunting any of those she suspected aloud.

Whatever the case in regards to the former, it looks fairly certain she tried to make herself look like a hunter (if she thought enough many would have gotten that Looney Tunes hint). So she was luring the wolves to try her (in case the wolves were not in her suspicions so that they dared to try it).

But that would then also mean she was comfortable with her hunting-pick, or just plain taking risks. And we'll probably never know whom she picked.

*AArrggh*

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Okay, just (if you don't have anything better to do, it's not necessary, I might try to cope on my own): could you please somehow rephrase, say it again or explain it a bit more? I didn't quite get the meaning of this paraghraph. What do you mean: who would set up whom and how, most importantly?

I meant if Lommy (or Eonwe, and/or someone else acquiring significant suspicion yesterday) is a wolf, then the pack could use their night kills to divert suspicion away from one of them.

For first kills, the "little to no trail kill" seems to be more popular these days. However, Rikae isn't one. She was involved in majority of the days action, and had some fairly strongly stated opinions. So, as Pom correctly rephrased it could have been a "Hey look, this person would have a reason to kill Rikae!" and thus get suspicion dropped on a wolf who was getting votes/suspicions on Day 1.

I may have gotten too wordy and confusing, but essentially I wanted to say that it doesn't have to be an either/or..."They killed her because they thought she was seer/gifted/a threat" OR "They killed her to divert suspicions away from one of their own"...it could very well be both.

I think in combination with the Bom-voting yesterday, and with the Rikae-kill, there was at least one wolf under lynch threat yesterday. It's like a 2-step plan.

1) The immediate fix to save a packmate from being lynched Day 1, by opportunistically capitilizing on Bom's self-vote.

2) The long-term solution, kill Rikae, a person who left some strong suspicions to follow and make it look like someone else had a reason to kill her. And thus what I meant by using the night-kill to "redirect focus" today. With how slight/unsure we are about Day 1 suspicions, it's rather easy to get us to drop them when getting other evidence, such as who the wolves killed.

Ok, the basics of my Pitch-uneasiness is how he came out today to scold people about the Bom-voting. There's more which I'm going to explain but this:

I'll be getting to Rikae in a moment, but first things first: that was one of the most useless D1 lynches ever.

It's not like I can't empathize to some degree with being annoyed by Bom and wanting to set an example, but what exactly was that supposed to accomplish? I mean, you said it yourselves:

It's not that what he says is wrong/inaccurate. Afterall, what would Bom's lynch accomplish? But it comes off as trying to shame us...like "How could you do this" or "How dare you."

Not sure how to describe it other than Pitch is sounding over-the-top, trying to show disgust towards a meaningless lynch. It certainly was a strangely agreed upon to vote Bom, but the shaming outrage "how could you people do this!" is out of place, and rather uncalled for. I mean nothing against Bom, but it's not like we lynched the seer.

Ok, now I didn't vote, and for whatever it's worth I would have likely voted for G55 yesterday, but I would not at all stood opposed to the Bom-lynch. And that's where I'm scratching my head about Pitch's scolding about the lynch.

What did it accomplish? Well, maybe nothing on the surface, because Bom didn't really say anything. But what did it accomplish for the wolves? Not much other than insure one of their own wasn't lynched. I mean it sucks for Bom, and eventually we have to put real spies in the real noose. Maybe I'm strange, but I happen to think, if not a wolf, than any Day 1 that doesn't lynch a gifted to help us more than the wolves. The longer gifteds stay around, use their gifts, and gather info, the more of a chance they can flip the tide against the wolves.

And besides it may be useless to glean any substance from Bom's posts, but that doesn't make the lynch, itself useless. I mean if one of the wolves was under threat of lynching yesterday, than Bom made an easy alternative target, and that's certainly not useless. And excluding Bom's vote, there were 5 who voted Bom. It's certainly plausible at least one spy is in there...so again what did the lynch accomplish for the wolves other than getting a step closer to victory?

So, yeah that first post from Pitch today...it's not sitting well with me. It looks like he's trying to shame people for how they voted, by framing the lynch as the "most useless Day 1 lynch ever." Maybe not the most meaningful, but real scolding language, especially when I'd hardly call it a horrible/crippling lynch (like lynching the seer D1)

Edit: crossed with Legate, Greenie and Nog

[A Little Green]

Boro - As others (himself included) have pointed out, he has seemed more himself toDay so I'm, if not letting him completely off the hook, then at least not concentrating on him.

Sally - Truly no idea. She's securely under Rudolph, I hope she'll come out of there soon.

Gal - Hmm. Her jump on the Lommywagon was fishy. Contrary to most others, who see her (over)reaction on Rikae as either suspicious or innocentish, I don't really think it gives us anything about her role. Basically, wolf and innocent alike can and do react emotionally, and I just don't think we can analyze that. (Unless the emotion is faked, which I seriously doubt Gal's was.) Yes, you could claim a wolf might be more prone to overreact, but since feelings are really not something that operate by logic, I don't think we can apply logic to analyzing them.

Shasta - Has been really really sharp, which I like. Leaning innocent this far; the most prominent thing he's done is, to use Legate's word, orchestrating the Bomwagon, but since I can see an innocent Shasta doing that just as well as an evil one, I can't draw conclusions from that either way.

Steve - Not sure about his motives for jumping on the Bomwagon, it came kind of out of the blue. Other than that, a vague bad feeling is all I've got. Would love to reread him if I had the time, which I sadly don't.

Nate - Nice and sharp. Nothing alarming this far.

Pitchwife - At the same time under my radar and somehow - off focus? That's an odd word, but he seems kind of confused and sharp at the same time. Which, I'm sure, is a much clearer phrasing.

Lottie - Strikes me as more innocent than not, kind of more gutsy and bold than as a wolf, I think.

Inziladun - Mr. Confusing. He was odd yesterDay (I think those points have been raised enough times already), but at the same time I think the whole "Zil-Legate-business" was blown quite out of proportion and might have affected the way he acted.

Lommy! - Like I said, she's confusing too. Innocent air, I'd say (though I always say that), but the part I quoted in my previous post, the one where she emphasizes her own innocence, seriously makes me raise my eyebrows.

Nogrod - Someone (was it Shasta?) had an interesting point about him defending Gal. Also and more importantly, I agree with Boro that he's been more reluctant to take the lead than usual - reminds me a bit of a certain RL game where he almost won as a wolf by basically letting us lynch each other while he smirked a bit and poked us to the direction he wished. At the same time, though, he's giving me good vibes (which in itself probably means he's evil since I always suspect him when he's not ).

Legate - He's always wishy-washy, but he seems a bit more nervous this game than usually. Maybe it's the pressure? Another I'd love to reread.


EDIT: x-ed with Nog and Boro

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Greenie

A Hunter hint? Why on earth would a Hunter leave hints?

One of the basic hunter-strategies I would think, two versions of it would be applicable here.

a) You think you know Rupert Murdoch is a wolf but you stay quiet about him. Instead you give hints you are a hunter and suspect Bill Gates a lot in the open. Now if Rupert is a wolf, he might think that is his chance to get rid of the hunter and *pow* he dies trying it in the Night.

b) You think you know Rupert Murdoch is a wolf and you want to keep him at bay during the Nights to be able to play more - so you make an open threat to him by hinting you're a hunter and suspecting him a lot. (The second one isn't probably the best tactics as it dangers the use of your gift, but people have used it as well)

[Eönwë]

Ok, finally caught up on toDay as well as the end of yesterDay, since I was very time-limited then. And now, looking back, I may have been more reluctant to vote Bom, but I'll get to that in a bit.

Firstly, Pom, your voting list has a few errors. I've fixed them here, and added in the roles of the dead:

Greenie -> Boro
Lottie -> Lommy
Bom -> Bom {ordo}
G55 -> Lommy (2)
Inzil -> Eonwe
Rikae {hunter} ->Inzil
Sally -> Eonwe (2)
Eru {ordo} -> Lommy (3)
Shasta -> Bom {ordo} (2)
Legate-> Bom {ordo} (3)
Nogrod-> Bom {ordo} (4)
Eonwe-> Bom {ordo} (5)
Lommy-> Bom {ordo} (6)
Pitch->Eonwe (3)
Pom->Legate


And I'm glad you also spotted Nog's sneaky post as the origin of the Bom bandwaggon, which is what I'm going to focus on now.

Here, we have two main parts to his 'half-serious' attack:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

If anyone is willing to help Bom with his suicide I'd be happy to lend a hand there.

So, we ranted too little about these no-trace votes (or we should have made the rant wider). I mean a self vote is as bad as a declared random vote in that they result in the same: there's no way of saying whom the person really wished to vote for (or whom he didn't want to vote) - or whom he faked wishing to vote for or not to vote for. Declared intentions concerning one's votes + the votes themselves are the bread and butter of this game, voting randomly or self-voting is effectively denying others the info. And thus something the wolves would love to hide in if it was looked on as having no consequences. Therefore I'm actually half-serious in proposing we lynch Bom toDay.

Firstly, here he claims that there is merit in voting Bom because of his self-vote.


Then, not content with this, he adds this:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The other thing that makes me half-serious with it, is what Bom has actually posted.

There are four posts by him.

In first (#22) he agrees with G55 (and all others) about the Acolyte discussion.

In the second one (#56) he says Rikae and G55 look innocentish, with no explanation whatsoever (well, he adds as a kind of softening that he finds G55 always innocent and wonders why is that). Then he does what I'd describe as piling onto the Leg/Zil -controversy saying that's the thing he finds interesting, though he will not himself have time to look at it.

In his third post (#64) he dislikes Greenie's vote but backtracks immediately saying he will not vote for Greenie as she will not be around to explain anymore.

Then he votes himself (#94) because "I don't seem to be in danger of being lynched".

It's as if he decided that the first reason wasn't enough, and instead of taking the angered route of lynching the self-voters, he also feels compelled to find reasons for him being suspicious. Of course, either of these two parts would be fine separately, but what is the point in bringing them together? There is no connecting theme except for "Reasons to lynch Bom", which does not seem like the sort of thing an innocent would do at all.


There's also his ending part:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The only problem I have with all this (and why I'm only half-serious) is that I'm afraid an innocent Bom could play just like this as well. And there are some I think we have some reasons to believe are not having our best in mind anyway. Heh, and I'm not so sure anymorfe why I used such a long time into this rant which begins with let's lynch Bom and then ends up with, well, maybe let's not...

Here he tried to stick it all together, and fails miserably. The two points are not the same at all. In addition, it's only here that he goes for the "but maybe an innocent Bom could do this too" angle. Throughout the rest of the post, there's no indication of anything else, no doubt or deviation from his topic- it's just a list of reasons to kill Bom.

Not only this, but he tries to soften the attack by using the words "half-serious" three times in his post. Three times. Because he knows that it is just a relentless "lynch Bom" campaign. And he doesn't want to seem like he's just coming up with this out of nowhere. He's waiting for others to pick up on his campaign and vote Bom for him, so he can just turn up later looking blameless.


The more important question is why he would do it. And what seems most likely to me is that either one of his fellows was getting attacked, or those being suspected were playing suspiciously enough for him to want to 'save them for later' when it would be harder to get an easy lynch. So I'm not sure how suspicious this makes Lommy. Yesterday, I started off thinking her suspicious, then innocent, but now, with this, I'm leaning suspicious again.

edit: x-ed with the 'Helsinki update'. Going to eat, but I will be back soon.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

First off - Lommy confuses me a lot at the moment.
This looked fishy to me, the need to emphasize her own innocence in a context where it wasn't called for. Some players do that all the time, but I don't think Lommy is one of those so it struck me as odd.

Didn't that mean the interpretation was wrongful? But I'd like to hear about that from Lommy too...

Originally Posted by LG

Err- what? Not entirely sure I get this point, or rather, I get the point all right but didn't get the framework. Anyhow, yes, if someone started it, I'd say it was Shasta, regardless of that Nogrod suggested it first. I know Shasta is brilliant as a wolf and I wouldn't put something like this past him, but nothing really points that way in my opinion. Unless he and Lommy are in cahoots, but I've not seen anything that would really support that, either. I'm more curious about Eonwe.

The general line of thinking was along the lines of "if WWs used the option to lynch Bom to save somebody, as the person I was replying to suggested, they had not intended that originally, since they merely jumped on Shasta's proposal - before that, nobody of the people seemed wanting to lynch Bom, so it would be just Wolves jumping on innocent Shasta's proposal - unless he is one of them; if he is, now THAT was a bold move..."

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Thinking about it again has led me to this kind of thoughts:
- Rikae was a logical hunter.
- As can be read from the tally, Eruhen was an ordo and thus not hunted down by Rikae.
- So no hunter-kill taking place means she was not hunting any of the four wolves.

Btw, good to say this aloud and clearly. I had the same in my mind, but somehow I think I didn't formulate it clearly enough: she was not hunting any of the four Wolves. I know it's trivial, but sometimes seeing it stated plainly like that helps a lot. This should also be remembered in future Days when chasing Wolves, we should compare the candidates for lynching with this in mind.

Originally Posted by LG

A Hunter hint? Why on earth would a Hunter leave hints?

Indeed. That's what I have said as well.

WARNING: In the end rather unsuccessful attempt to analyze the situation of Rikae's intention and death following.

Originally Posted by Nog

So... if she hunted Inzil or Boro (two that would have seen most likely by what happened yesterDay), then she failed aka. the one she hunted is not a wolf.

Now it is also quite possible - and maybe even probable - that being the crafty player she was, she was not hunting any of those she suspected aloud.

Whatever the case in regards to the former, it looks fairly certain she tried to make herself look like a hunter (if she thought enough many would have gotten that Looney Tunes hint). So she was luring the wolves to try her (in case the wolves were not in her suspicions so that they dared to try it).

But that would then also mean she was comfortable with her hunting-pick, or just plain taking risks. And we'll probably never know whom she picked.

*AArrggh*

This is basically the same point as to which I have arrived above with this "if she knew they knew she knew they knew..." It is really messy. Okay, let's try to rephrase it - or "re-act" the scene once again. Since we know Rikae did not die, she must NOT have hunted a Wolf. Also, the Wolves obviously DID kill her. So what has happened here must have been one of the following. I will be using Boro as the example, although of course it is by no means the only option - the Wolves might not have gotten the hint, they might have interpreted it differently, they might have thought she was hunting Zil or whoever else was the possibility, but if I consider the hint, then at least I'd say Boro was what Rikae probably MEANT it to be; otherwise I have no idea):

A - Boro is not a Wolf
Rikae: Listen, people, I want you to think I am hunting Boro. (she indeed does so)
Wolves: Hahaha, stupid hunter, Boro is not one of us. *safely got rid of one Gifted*

B - Boro is a Wolf
Rikae: Listen, people, I want you to think I am hunting Boro. (she bluffs and actually hunts somebody else)
Wolves: We should not attack her. She is hunting one of us.
Clever Wolf: She is obviously bluffing. Let's kill her anyway.
OR
Stupid Wolf: Who cares. Let's gamble.

Now the more messy part would be analysing what Rikae actually had in mind when she did that. Because:

1. Rikae thinks Boro is a Wolf
Rikae: I am going to give Boro the hint that I am the hunter. He won't try to kill me and I will survive one more Night. (does not make any sense, in my opinion! Hunter is not here to survive, but to be killed!)
OR
Rikae: I am going to give Boro the hint that I am the hunter. He is a stupid Wolf, so he will say "yay, let's go kill Hunter!" and I will kill him. (makes even less sense, Boro would have to be completely crazy to do that)
OR
Rikae: I am going to... (you know the stuff)... He is a clever Wolf, so he will think I am bluffing and in fact not hunting him, he will try to kill me and I will kill him. (somewhat over-the-top, I'd say, though still better than the previous possibilities)

2. Rikae thinks Boro is not a Wolf
Rikae: I am going to give the hint... Wolves will see it and think I am hunting Boro. They will try to kill me in order to frame him and I hope I pick for my Night kill one of them. (would make a bit more sense than all the previous, but still it is rather mad)

So with all this, my conclusion would be that most likely it was something completely different, like Rikae pretending to be Seer or I have no idea what the Angband is that about.

Brain exercise. Thank you for your attention. If you did not make any sense of it, don't worry, not sure if it's very important in the end. I just tried to clarify the matter for myself, not very successfuly.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I meant if Lommy (or Eonwe, and/or someone else acquiring significant suspicion yesterday) is a wolf, then the pack could use their night kills to divert suspicion away from one of them.

For first kills, the "little to no trail kill" seems to be more popular these days. However, Rikae isn't one. She was involved in majority of the days action, and had some fairly strongly stated opinions. So, as Pom correctly rephrased it could have been a "Hey look, this person would have a reason to kill Rikae!" and thus get suspicion dropped on a wolf who was getting votes/suspicions on Day 1.

I may have gotten too wordy and confusing, but essentially I wanted to say that it doesn't have to be an either/or..."They killed her because they thought she was seer/gifted/a threat" OR "They killed her to divert suspicions away from one of their own"...it could very well be both.

Ok, yes, I think I got it, thanks...

Originally Posted by Boro

What did it accomplish? Well, maybe nothing on the surface, because Bom didn't really say anything. But what did it accomplish for the wolves? Not much other than insure one of their own wasn't lynched. I mean it sucks for Bom, and eventually we have to put real spies in the real noose. Maybe I'm strange, but I happen to think, if not a wolf, than any Day 1 that doesn't lynch a gifted to help us more than the wolves. The longer gifteds stay around, use their gifts, and gather info, the more of a chance they can flip the tide against the wolves.

Note: this makes Boro sound better. It sounds genuine and does not sound like something a Wolf would say.

Ugh. I have been again writing this over a long and often interrupted period of time (and that includes this terrible and unfruitful brain exercise in the middle)... will take a break for a while and do something useful elsewhere...

EDIT: x-ed with Greenie, Nog, and Eönwë

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

One of the basic hunter-strategies I would think, two versions of it would be applicable here.

a) You think you know Rupert Murdoch is a wolf but you stay quiet about him. Instead you give hints you are a hunter and suspect Bill Gates a lot in the open. Now if Rupert is a wolf, he might think that is his chance to get rid of the hunter and *pow* he dies trying it in the Night.

b) You think you know Rupert Murdoch is a wolf and you want to keep him at bay during the Nights to be able to play more - so you make an open threat to him by hinting you're a hunter and suspecting him a lot. (The second one isn't probably the best tactics as it dangers the use of your gift, but people have used it as well)

Okay, Nogrod, all very nice thoughts, but I make it obligatory for *you* to read my unfruitful brain exercise (post above this one) in its fullest and then you can tell me what you think about it... (Well, what. You often write long posts yourself. We can drink the bitter cup of reading confusing long stuff both )

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

So repeating this for the last time, the issue was (narrated as I saw it back then): Zil requested from others to start "hunting wolves" yet didn't act on it himself, so I questioned that behavior, he did not react, I asked him again, he replied with the same line as in start which did not explain anything (at least to me back then), and so on, back and forth something like four times. I kept asking him only because he had not answered my question. Now he has clarified it to me by the end of yesterDay, so we're somewhere else now.

Legate's defense has me feeling slightly better about him, though I still don't understand how I didn't make myself clear on the whole issue. Especially to someone as sharp as he.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That's basically it, I guess. This argument eventually prevailed in my mind as in the others', probably, over the anyway uncertain suspicions we might have had (and a large part of it was probably when it got rolling, which was probably mostly my doing, I humbly confess, the decisive moment - but really, I don't regret it, even in retrospect. Of course killing a Wolf would have been much better, but for Day 1, at that moment, it was a right choice, I would have probably done it again). The main basis of my vote was indeed this "if not toDay, then never" and "we can still lynch Boro tomorrow".

I realize I think quite differently than most, and, as I said, I know Bom has done some frustrating things, but is voting for one's self on Day 1 really something a wolf would be likely to do? I can see some legitimately feeling like there was no better option, and voting for him, but there's got to be baddies on that wagon.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But the thing is, it was basically really orchestrated by Shasta. At least from my POV, if he had not pointed it out so decisively, I wouldn't have considered voting Bom, most likely. And so basically the only logical explanation would be that Shastawolf would come up with this brilliant scheme to turn the whole village away from voting some fellow Wolf by proposing a completely new lynch. It would have been brilliant scheme, hats off to Roy Harper, but somehow I'd find it really really really bold and such things don't usually happen.

Wanting to lynch Bom under those circumstances doesn't really seem out of character for an innocent Shasta. I think it more likely if Spies were involved they'd be with the later votes.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

A Hunter hint? Why on earth would a Hunter leave hints?

I can really only see a Hunter doing that if xe was very sure xe'd spotted a wolf. On Day 1, barring any kind of Seer drama, that just seems too unlikely. So I don't know what Rikae was up to.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I may have gotten too wordy and confusing, but essentially I wanted to say that it doesn't have to be an either/or..."They killed her because they thought she was seer/gifted/a threat" OR "They killed her to divert suspicions away from one of their own"...it could very well be both.

Sure, both could be possible. And if they merely took her Hunter-hints (if that's what they were) at face value, they might have gambled that it was too early in the game for her to have any concrete suspicions and decided to get her out of the way, especially of she hadn't been open about suspecting one of them.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I think in combination with the Bom-voting yesterday, and with the Rikae-kill, there was at least one wolf under lynch threat yesterday.

When Shasta started pushing Bom as a lynch, Lommy had three votes and Eönwë had two.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Not sure how to describe it other than Pitch is sounding over-the-top, trying to show disgust towards a meaningless lynch. It certainly was a strangely agreed upon to vote Bom, but the shaming outrage "how could you people do this!" is out of place, and rather uncalled for. I mean nothing against Bom, but it's not like we lynched the seer.

I see your point, but to me Pitch has been looking fairly clean otherwise.

x/d with all since # 187

[Eönwë]

Back, and now onto a few other things.

Firstly, I'm interested by Pitch's find:

Originally Posted by Rikae

it may be more logical to leave Inzil alone for toDay precisely because he has made himself a target.

It seems pretty likely that if the wolves were looking for hints and suspected she was a hunter, this (as well as the wabbit/coyote thing) would have stood out. And it does, as Pitch says, pretty much say that she's picking Inzil. Whether or not she actually did is irrelevant, since no-one died. But if the wolves did take this as a hint, then they would definitely assume that Inzil was chosen. In which case, this whole affair makes Inzil look very good. If they got the wabbit/coyote hint and not this one, then it still makes Inzil look good, since he was her vote, and so I doubt there'd be any way he'd risk it. Same goes for if they didn't even consider her as the hunter. She voted for Inzil, so the link would be way too strong.

So, basically, what this quote from Rikae does is point to Inzil's innocence, and I suppose I may have overreacted a bit to his attack of me yesterDay, since in reread, he doesn't look all that evil. And he's explained his weird actions already, so at the moment I'm fine with him.


Next, Pitch himself.
Considering that early yesterDay he seemed simply careful about not getting too deeply involved anywhere, and that he started seeming more and more evil as the Day progressed, I'm starting to suspect that the particular he made on Rikae's possible hint post is simply a summary of a discussion he may have had last Night.

I mean, he's started garnering suspicion, and what better way to clear his name than to give us some much sought-after information regarding Rikae's killing? So he can use his extra knowledge to gain favour with the village. And then maybe the whole wabbit/coyote thing is just to throw us off the feeling that he knows too much, since it's a very related topic, and him knowing both would suggest that he was particularly looking out for hints, which doesn't look good.


Also, I may just be being cynical, but since I suspect Nog of being a wolf, this seems like an attempt to allay our thoughts on Zil (or Boro, who has also been suggested as a possible pick for her) being innocent:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Now it is also quite possible - and maybe even probable - that being the crafty player she was, she was not hunting any of those she suspected aloud.

And then, there's the interplay between Nog and Pitch. I'm not going to go through it all now (still need catch up since Nog's 'Helsinki update'), but I remember noting Pitch trying to keep his distance from Nog by arguing against his points and making mild accusations but never going truly after him.



My other thought on people today is that Pom looks sharp and innocent.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Eönwë suddenly jumped to my suspicion list with his last post. If anything, *that* sounds like an attempt to frame up a person. I can fairly understand what Nog had said and what Eönwë criticises as innocent, but Eönwë seems to be overzealously painting it completely black. And it really seems to me like an attempt to cast suspicion on somebody.

Starting from the use of adjectives like "sneaky" in the very beginning (with a post that is perfectly normal, in my opinion)...

Originally Posted by Eönwë

And I'm glad you also spotted Nog's sneaky post as the origin of the Bom bandwaggon, which is what I'm going to focus on now.

...using then those very decisive terms "not content with this, he adds..."

Then, not content with this, he adds this:

It's as if he decided that the first reason wasn't enough, and instead of taking the angered route of lynching the self-voters, he also feels compelled to find reasons for him being suspicious. Of course, either of these two parts would be fine separately, but what is the point in bringing them together? There is no connecting theme except for "Reasons to lynch Bom", which does not seem like the sort of thing an innocent would do at all.

...and making a camel out of a midget (Czech proverb - I think in English it's mountain out of a molehill) with this analysis and finishing with saying an innocent wouldn't do that at all.

And the final evaluation is what feels the worst:

Here he tried to stick it all together, and fails miserably.
(...)
Not only this, but he tries to soften the attack by using the words "half-serious" three times in his post. Three times. Because he knows that it is just a relentless "lynch Bom" campaign. And he doesn't want to seem like he's just coming up with this out of nowhere. He's waiting for others to pick up on his campaign and vote Bom for him, so he can just turn up later looking blameless.

Sort of a very, very, very, very determined and very, very, very violent attack, I would say. So I really don't like that.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Wanting to lynch Bom under those circumstances doesn't really seem out of character for an innocent Shasta. I think it more likely if Spies were involved they'd be with the later votes.

I'm not saying it's impossible, the question would be who. But I also think that, given the numbers, it is not very helpful to assume there would be some WWs among them, since we don't know which ones.

EDIT: x-ed with Eönwë

[A Little Green]

Legate more or less said what I meant to say. I'm really not comfortable with Eonwe's jump on Nog. I'm not sure about Nog myself, but the way Eonwe is painting him black without pausing to consider the alternative is alarming.

That said, I'm going to vote early again due to work tomorrow. "Early" as in "very soon", to be exact.

[A Little Green]

Right -

++ Eonwe

He was one of the ones I was least comfortable with, and that jump on Nog settled it.

Good Night, I'm letting Lommy on now.

[Eönwë]

Since I've already started, I might as well post what I think of people.

Boromir88- Need to look at more closely, because I've realised I have no strong opinion on him.
Sally - Something worries me, but again, I'll need to look more closely.
Galadriel55 - Seems innocent to me.
Shasta - Looks like he has good intentions, even with the whole Bom-lynch. Looks honest and .
Pomegranate - Didn't post much yesterDay, but she looks very sharp and innocent toDay, as I've said.
A Little Green - She seems pretty good so far.
Pitchwife - I suspect there's something dark behind his previously spotless veneer.
Lottie - Ah, Lottie, I'm not sure about her. At first I thought her evil, but looking back on her posts she seems pretty standard Lottie.
Inziladun - I now think he's most likely innocent.
Lommy - While she speaks sense, there was something off about her early posts yesterDay, and she did have the most votes before the Bom-waggon.
Nogrod - I doubt I need to say what I think here
Legate of Amon Lanc - I've started getting the feeling that he's evil too. There's something about the way he posts... At first I thought he was a strong innocent, but now I suspect darker intentions.

edit:x-ed with Legate's complaint

[Thinlómien]

Who's this guy who's kidnapped Mr. Agreeable and started playing sharp and aggressive? Creepy.

Also, I don't understand why people are letting Boro off the hook toDay. I don't think he's any more his normal aggressive yet relaxed self than yesterDay, he just seems less tired and more focused. There's still something off in his manner if you ask me, his suspicions seem fabricated. (Okay, slight amendment, the novel of #186 from him looks pretty good.)

In any case, thanks for clarifying the Looney Tunes thing, Boro. Not that it makes us much wiser about Rikae's death, though.

Originally Posted by Legate

Didn't that mean the interpretation was wrongful? But I'd like to hear about that from Lommy too...

For some reason, this asking for clarification rubs me the wrong way. But if you honestly want to know, well, I just happened to phrase it that way. A lot of Lottie's stuff was misunderstanding what I said, or interpreting it in a totally weird light. Like she totally misunderstood my Lottie-Pitch-Zil confusion, if I recall correctly.

Randomly back to Rikae - can we read her posts the way she tried to seer-hint she dreamt of Boro and the wolves took her hint?

Originally Posted by Rikae

Haha, I just realized I mistook a coyote for a wabbit... that could be a dangerous mistake!

If coyote = wolf and wabbit = Boro, then what? She mistook a wolf for Boro? Given that bunnies associate with innocence, this could mean she mistook a wolf for an innocent little bunny, and the choice of the word "wabbit" as opposed to "rabbit" or "bunny" or "coney" or whatever obviously points at Boro (like he kindly explained). So I'm thinking, maybe she was implying Boro was a coyote in a wabbit's clothing (aka a wolf in a sheep's clothing), the wolves caught it and killed her? And you all probably spotted the gaping hole in my logic the same time I did - if this was the case, why isn't Borowolf dead? The ranger or the mysterious acolyte intervened? Rikae double-bluffed or failed to send in her pick? Pretty far-fetched... anyone want to help me with this?

And Zil - are you 100% sure you aren't the cobbler?

Another question: why is everybody working based on the assumption that the wolves are thinking about the hunter 24/7? I thought it was the seer they were preoccupied with...

[Nogrod]

Okay.

G55 starts the Day with a full-frontal attack on me, which attack I find manufactured to say it nicely.

Eönwë enters the scene later with a full-frontal attack on me, which attack I have hard times calling even manufactured.

Now a bit more impatient soul might think you guys have decided last Night to go after me toDay and get me lynched, maybe making a deal on the issues each one would write as their own "cases" during the Night.

But there are four wolves and I must say I'm totally confused if your mates wouldn't then have told you two to act a bit more wisely as that looks just terrible. So I'm tempted to look at these two as two separate bursts coming from their own motivations, even if I must say the temptation to look them as a wolf-duo trying their best (which isn't a lot, sorry) is compelling.

I can see G55 making the attack half as a self-defence, but it is still quite over the top (and could be either). Steve I have harder time of figuring out why, unless it was decided already earlier that should be done. I mean unless that was not pre-planned, then I must have hit a point somewhere and hit it too well.

I need to check that... and many other things.

[Inziladun]

I see Legate has come out against Eönwë now, and Greenie has responded by voting for him.

Eönwë's list seems rather vague and unsettling, especially in that he now considers Legate potentially "evil" after the latter began to suspect him.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Also, I don't understand why people are letting Boro off the hook toDay. I don't think he's any more his normal aggressive yet relaxed self than yesterDay, he just seems less tired and more focused. There's still something off in his manner if you ask me, his suspicions seem fabricated. (Okay, slight amendment, the novel of #186 from him looks pretty good.)

I need to go back and look at why you said you suspected Boro yesterDay.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Randomly back to Rikae - can we read her posts the way she tried to seer-hint she dreamt of Boro and the wolves took her hint? If coyote = wolf and wabbit = Boro, then what? She mistook a wolf for Boro? Given that bunnies associate with innocence, this could mean she mistook a wolf for an innocent little bunny, and the choice of the word "wabbit" as opposed to "rabbit" or "bunny" or "coney" or whatever obviously points at Boro (like he kindly explained). So I'm thinking, maybe she was implying Boro was a coyote in a wabbit's clothing (aka a wolf in a sheep's clothing), the wolves caught it and killed her? And you all probably spotted the gaping hole in my logic the same time I did - if this was the case, why isn't Borowolf dead? The ranger or the mysterious acolyte intervened? Rikae double-bluffed or failed to send in her pick? Pretty far-fetched... anyone want to help me with this?

I wonder if, instead of believing her the Hunter due to the "wabbit" hint, they might not have gambled on her as a Seer playing at one maybe, in order to keep them away from her. It's possible, I guess. And if she really was the Hunter, like I said earlier, the odds of her getting one of them were pretty small that early in the game.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

And Zil - are you 100% sure you aren't the cobbler?

Care to elaborate?

x/d with Nog