New evidence for the Arkenstone-Silmaril case

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Findegil
But that said, I at least find it a bit unfair if the supporters are demanded not to raise 'what if' arguments but the contradicter do so as freely as they will.

I feel that's a bit of an exaggeration, Findegil– you seem to be referring to this exchange:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

One would think that the retrieval of such an item would be important for when Olorin would return to Valinor... etc.

In this particular case, Landroval had asked a question that could *only* be answered in hypothetical terms.

For the rest, I hardly think you can say that the "anti" camp have been raising "what if" arguments "as freely as they will". The problem, anyway, is not simply that the "for" people put forward "what if" cases, but that that's basically *all* they put forward. Further, many of these cases, just taken individually, have serious issues regards logic and plausibility. I don't see what's wrong with pointing this out.

Originally Posted by Findegil

P.S.: If you like, please ignore this post, since it seems I am supporting a 'illogical hypotheses' anyway.

I think it is illogical, yes. Please don't take that as a personal insult, Findegil. (I mean, if you are taking that way, that is.)

[Morthoron]

I will only add the lines Tolkien wrote after Maedhros tossed his Silmaril (and himself) into a chasm of fire, and Maglor threw his Silmaril into the sea:

And thus it came to pass that the Silmarils found their long homes: one in the airs of heaven, and one in the fires of the heart of the world, and one in the deep waters.

There is a finality there that precludes long distance gem-migrating, Dwarf-delving, jewellers-faceting, dragon-hording, Hobbit-thieving, and funerary-betokening.

The Silmarils found their long homes. As eloquent an end as one could ask for.

[Inziladun]

For me the matter is akin to saying Elvis Presley is alive and working at a Dairy Queen in New Jersey.

It's theoretically possible in a faint way, but it sure ain't very likely.

I agree that the clear inference in The Silmarillion is that the Silmarils would not be retrieved until the End.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The Silmarils found their long homes. As eloquent an end as one could ask for.

Right. And as I noted earlier: 'John Rateliff notes the sense of finality (that the Silmarils were lost) in the 1926 Sketch of the Mythology and various versions of the 1930 Quenta Noldorinwa...' but notes: 'Despite the sense of finality in the passages just quoted, Tolkien had in fact changed his mind four times in the previous fifteen years about the holy jewel's fate...' J. Rateliff


To which I responded: I think that's a rather notable 'despite,' because the Sketch and the 1930 Qenta are still relatively close in date to the writing of The Hobbit.

Anyway I agree: this finality is fitting, this is what Tolkien landed on, but yet some seem to want it to be otherwise, as even Rateliff seems to want to connect these things.

Sea, Earth and Sky. Works for me