Unfinished Tales - Part One - II - Narn I Hín Húrin

[Guinevere]

I really feel more like reading Tolkien's Father Christmas Letters right now!!

[Galadriel55]

Here's something that I value in this story that no other stans-alone story* in the legendarium has: the power of tragedy. Not the gentle sadness, and more than just foreboding on the reader's part. It's not even a slap in the face, it's a bucket of cold water.

Not that I dislike the other stories, or think that they are shallow, but their power lies in a different direction.

*I would say that The Sil in it's full is worth of this description as well

Dragons are loved by many readers - what do you think of Glaurung? Is he particularly malicious, or just acting as a dragon must?

He is described somewhere as Angband's most dangerous weapon (something of this sort), and well earns this title. But he is more than just a weapon. He's like an incarnated piece of Morgoth's evilness and malice.

I am not really sure how to answer the question, though. Is he doing something he decided to do, or is he doing what he was created for? He doesn't have a choice, and he doesn't want a choice. But it would be really interesting to take a peak at what goes on in his mind underneath the cunning.


I was really disappointed that CJRT didn't include the scene when Morwen dies. I understand that, since it's not really about the Children, but I like to have the family story completed. It's my favourite scene from the whole COH.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Here's something that I value in this story that no other stans-alone story* in the legendarium has: the power of tragedy. Not the gentle sadness, and more than just foreboding on the reader's part. It's not even a slap in the face, it's a bucket of cold water.

I feel like you're contradicting yourself here slightly: you say that no other stand-alone story has the power of tragedy, a flat-out statement. Then you make it a matter of degree: "more than just foreboding. It's not even a slap in the face, it's a bucket of cold water."

Of course, it's possible that I'm reading it this way because I think you're wrong about the flat-out statement. I don't think the Narn is the only stand-alone tragedy but I do agree that it has it in spades, that it's the most tragic. But the only tragedy? Aldarion and Erendis is flashing in my mind like the Las Vegas strip, and I think it's hard to argue either that it isn't tragic or that it isn't stand-alone.

For that matter, it's a fuzzy question where you draw the line between "part of the Silmarillion" and "stand-alone stories." Is "The Fall of Gondolin" a stand-alone story? I would argue that if the Narn is, the Fall must be--the main difference being that the Narn was a lot closer to being finished, while the Fall only exists completely in its Book of Lost Tales version--because of its early ending, "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin" reads more like a happy ending ("Woo! Tuor makes it!") than the tragedy of Turgon, Maeglin, and the Fall of Gondolin that it is supposed to lead into.

[Galadriel55]

To answer some of your questions, I don't think Of Aldarion and Erendis andOf Tuor come anywhere close to the grandeur of tragedy in the Narn. They have their own grandeur, but it is not as tragic. "Tuor" is not written in the "right" language for tragedy. And "Of A&E" ends in a quiet deadness (I know it wasn't a word... now it is It's the only way I can describe how I feel about it), not in a loud band. Just softer and softer, and quiet. The Narn ends off with a bang.

Both have good endings, IMO.But. Back to my earlier point.

This also might affect my personal bias: I have read COH numerous times before, so I'm familiar with the complete edited version of the story, and the gap/variations/inconsistency don't ruin it for me in the Narn. But I've read A&E for the first time, and it's just too unfinished a tale to have it's power unraveled fully.

I feel like you're contradicting yourself here slightly: you say that no other stand-alone story has the power of tragedy, a flat-out statement. Then you make it a matter of degree: "more than just foreboding. It's not even a slap in the face, it's a bucket of cold water."

Possibly. And I think that this is because I separate "sad" and "tragic" too much. There are many sad stories (any completely happy ones? ), but only this one stands out to me as a tragedy of such magnitude (and forget about the 3 Elven Kingdoms, I'm talking about a different kind of magnitude).

[Galadriel55]

In The Words of Hurin and Morgoth Morgoth says about his family "They dwell now in my realm, and are at my mercy," to which Hurin replies "You have none". How does this reflect (or not) what actually happened?

I think we would all agree that Turin's fate (let's just call it that for now and not get into that beaten debate) was anything but merciful. But considering his suicide - is that the least merciful way to end his life and suffering? Could it not have been worse?

I guess Turin was at such a point then that Morgoth could do nothing else to make him suffer further.

Also, Turin overcame himself in the end - and overcame all which his fate hung by. Even though he was mad when he committed suicide, there is still an element of sanity to it (unlike Nienor, who jumped of pure horror, grief, and feeling of helplessness/despair about the powers that toy with her family). He understood that his death is better than his life - not only for himself, but for everyone else too. Is that not what he was greatly urged to do all his life - understand his inability, forget his pride? And when he finally did it he found peace, though by far not the kind of peace anyone hoped for. This is also the point at which he stops running away from the past, and his past. The point when he sees no future.

Food for thought: is his greatest victory over the dragon, or over himself?


(Typing this made me think of Terminator... But it makes sense. To destroy further effects of Morgoth's curse or his own pride or whatever, Turin had to destroy himself...)

But for a more appropriate analogy, think Boromir.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Both have good endings, IMO.But. Back to my earlier point.

...

Possibly. And I think that this is because I separate "sad" and "tragic" too much. There are many sad stories (any completely happy ones? ), but only this one stands out to me as a tragedy of such magnitude (and forget about the 3 Elven Kingdoms, I'm talking about a different kind of magnitude).

As I said, I agree that the Narn is the *most* tragic of Tolkien's tales, other than the overall Silm--and I imagine even you'd be hard-pressed to say that the tragedy of the House of Fëanor doesn't at least give the Narn a run for its money, from the fiery heights of Fëanor's oath through the near-success of the Nirnaeth to the final, desperate death of Maedhros and the wanderings of Maglor. But, putting that question aside, I agree that the Narn is more tragic than the Fall of Gondolin or Aldarion and Erendis--but I don't think it's the only tragedy.

And part of this relates to the endings--and I will admit I don't see how you can think that Aldarion and Erendis has a "good ending." Since you say this to disqualify it from being a tragedy, I assume you mean it in the colloquial sense of a "happy ending"--but there's nothing happy about it. Yes, it ends with more of a quiet despair than the violent raging against fate that characterizes the Narn, but this is, to me, more of a question of tragic degree than of tragic nature.

The ending of "the Fall of Gondolin" is another matter. If you look at it as a hopeful story, where Tuor and Idril make it out alive with the best lucky survivors, and get to start again, kicking off the ultimately hopeful story of Eärendil, then you have grounds to call it... erm... not-a-tragedy. (I was about to say a comedy, but no one gets married.) On the other hand... as we can see in "Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin," Turgon rejects Ulmo's message; the people of Gondolin do NOT mostly escape--Tuor's party is the exception. As a story by itself (and, remember, we are discussing this outside of its context as part of the wider Silmarillion), Tuor and Ulmo's hopes from the beginning of the story have been dashed.

So... again, I agree that The Fall of Gondolin is not as tragic as the Narn--but I don't think it holds that the Narn is the only tragedy.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

To answer some of your questions, I don't think Of Aldarion and Erendis andOf Tuor come anywhere close to the grandeur of tragedy in the Narn. They have their own grandeur, but it is not as tragic. "Tuor" is not written in the "right" language for tragedy.

Now... I have to ask... what is the right language for tragedy?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

And part of this relates to the endings--and I will admit I don't see how you can think that Aldarion and Erendis has a "good ending."

I have to be more clearer when I write. I meant "good enging", not that the characters "ended well". "Good" as in, I like it.

Originally Posted by Form

Now... I have to ask... what is the right language for tragedy?

Well, TH does not have the right language for a tragedy. The tone is not right. And although LOTR has a sad/bittersweet ending, it's not a tragedy either in my eyes.

So... again, I agree that The Fall of Gondolin is not as tragic as the Narn--but I don't think it holds that the Narn is the only tragedy.

That boils down to the question of what you consider to be a tragedy.

It seems to me that you and I have different reactions to Aldarion and Erendis. For whatever reason it did not strike me as deeply as it did you. But I'll save that for the right chapter.

[Guinevere]

Before we go on to the next story, some belated thoughts.

When I first read the Silmarillion and especially the story of Túrin, I was deeply troubled.
It is so sombre and sad, ending in total despair and hopelessness. The injustice of it all bothered me most! Especially the faithful and steadfast Húrin really really didn't deserve such a cruel fate! Why did the Valar (who after all had intervened in some cases like when Maedhros was saved by Fingon, and Tuor) totally forsake him? Morwen and Túrin had their flaws, but still didn't deserve what they got. Túrin was so brave, always trying to start a new life and make things better. What in the end made him despair,"the worst of all his deeds" he can't really be blamed for ! (btw, how come Glaurung knew all this??)
Eru apparently doesn't care about "his children" at all, but leaves everything to Morgoth.

I just couldn't understand how the author of The Lord of the Rings could have written such a hopeless story!

In the Lord of the Rings I feel that there is a balance between hope and melancholy, that there is a merciful providence behind it all, in spite of the sadness that many things are irrevocably lost. Virtues like courage, faithfulness, love and pity are rewarded. The ending is bitter-sweet, sad and yet hopeful. When I finish reading the LotR, I feel sad, but not depressed and empty!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

I really feel more like reading Tolkien's Father Christmas Letters right now!!

I picked up this suggestion and am starting a discussion of the FCL very soon! I hope you join me!