Unfinished Tales - Part One - II - Narn I Hín Húrin

[Galadriel55]

That's a really thorough and in-depth explanation, Form. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Formy

The only thing I can come up with about this is that the separation from Morwen was unnatural in a way that the separation from Lalaith (via death) and Húrin (via imprisonment) is not, and I think this holds some water.

I would agree with this, though for slightly different reasons. Going to Doriath was the first sorrow that Turin accepted by free will (there you have the theme again). He didn't have much choice, but nonetheless it was not something that he did not have any part in. He deliberately walked the way from Dor-lomin to Doriath. If he could not stop or control the Black Breath or Hurin's imprisonment, the separation from Morwen was his first self-inflicted sorrow.

Though there's a flaw in this reasoning, because the second sorrow of Turin is said to be when Morwen didn't follow him in spring. This was also out of his control.

So yeah, you're probably right about the Curse.

...wondering what mother would do that to her son.

This is the one time that she swallows her pride, and it's another reason to dislike her.

She's sending him to safety - and you're asking what mother would do that?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

She's sending him to safety - and you're asking what mother would do that?

I don't think anyone would blame Morwen for desiring to keep her son free, and out of thralldom. But we always return to the fact that Túrin's sorrow was not due only to leaving his home, but being forcibly parted from his family. It needn't have been that way, and Morwen's pride was the sole cause.

Moreover, though [Morwen] was willing that her son should be fostered in the halls of another, after the manner of that time, she would not yet humble her pride to be an alms-guest, not even of a king. Therefore the voice of Húrin, or the memory of his voice was denied, and the first strand of the fate of Túrin was woven.

If the family had travelled to Doriath together, it seems clear Túrin's "fate" would have been altered. Whether that would have been enough to wholly escape the curse is debatable, but still: as with he son later, Morwen aided the curse's workings with her own personal choices.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I don't think anyone would blame Morwen for desiring to keep her son free, and out of thralldom. But we always return to the fact that Túrin's sorrow was not due only to leaving his home, but being forcibly parted from his family. It needn't have been that way, and Morwen's pride was the sole cause.

No, he could have been a thral together with Morwen. I doubt he would be happier that way.

If the family had travelled to Doriath together, it seems clear Túrin's "fate" would have been altered. Whether that would have been enough to wholly escape the curse is debatable, but still: as with he son later, Morwen aided the curse's workings with her own personal choices.

And I see no reason to dislike Morwen for that. She's no Nostradamus to know what would happen to her family if she chose one thing over another. She chose what her heart told her was right, and what can she do about it if it's wrong? She made a mistake, no denial, but she's just a human!

Moreover, from a purely reader's position (which means that now I'm talking about her as a book characer rather than one I am imagining myself with), it is illogical for the story for her to make the right choice, if there is a "right" choice (as you said, it is still debatable). Sad stories don't happen if there isn't any story. Here you have to ask yourself: if you are the author intending to write a tragedy, would you really have the characters do everything "right" so that there is a happy, or happier, ending?

Morwen aided the curse. With a deed that was meant to defy it. How would she have known that? "Proud and stern" is who she is, with or without Morgoth's words. It just happens so that the curse draws out the negative side of all attributes of any character involved. Pride is not a bad thing, as was discussed already. The consequences of this particular pride were bad, through mischance rather than a fault of Morwen's.

And really, what do you expect her to do? You are looking at things too objectively. You are the reader; you know the past, present, and future of the characters, as well as all the little "dramatic irony" facts. They don't. Look at Morwen's choice with her knowledge, attitude, and point of view, not with yours.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by G55

No, he could have been a thral together with Morwen. I doubt he would be happier that way.

I think what Zil meant was that she could have gone with him; but the text says that her pregnancy was advanced by that time and journeying out of the question for her, so she can't be blamed for that.

[Boromir88]

Perhaps not directly pertinent to the discussion on Morwen, but I think it will interest G55 talking about "good pride" and "bad pride."

Normally, I think in Tolkien's writing (at least on Middle-earth) there is the stress on Pride being a vice. Gandalf is viewed much better because of his immense display of humility and sacrifice. I won't rehash the list of characters who become blinded by their pride. The tricky part is, Pride can lead you to greatness, and reaching accomplishments that no one thought possible. With that said, the same pride is a slippery slope to one's own downfall. I think in the case with Feanor and Turin, is while their pride was their reason for achieving Greatness, their pride leads to the inevitable Fall. Because ultimately, Pride blinds you from yourself and eventually consumes you. Once you start down the slippery slope, you can't avoid the inevitable going from being the master of your pride, to becoming mastered by pride.

What I think would interest you, G55, is Tolkien's differing opinion on ofermod. I don't recall the word ever being used in Tolkien's middle-earth related writings, but the concept is present. I believe the literal translation of ofermod is "excessive spirit," and most scholars view Beowulf's ofermod as a positive trait. It is Beowulf's "excessive sprit" which leads to Beowulf achieving greatness. Tolkien took a different view, and thinks Beowulf's ofermod leads to rash decisions and unnecessary deaths of Beowulf's comrades. Beowulf's "excessive spirit" blinded him and led to rash, and unwise decisions.

So, when talking about the context of Middle-earth, it doesn't matter whether one agrees with Tolkien's interpretation of ofermod. What matters is Tolkien's opinion on it and how it's present in his story. Ofermod is thus the "bad pride," it is the "excessive pride," which can be seen in a wide range of Tolkien's characters.

As far as Morwen, I really have no opinion, or it's kind of similar to my opinion on Denethor. Many flaws as a parent as a leader, but I can't hate them because I do see good traits, possibly redeeming traits. The primary one being, Denethor always remained stoutly opposed to Sauron. Minas Tirith was the stalwart tower of resistance, and Denethor bolstered that resistance until the very end when he lost all hope in the strength of his house and realm. Not the most sympathetic person, but not someone I could hate or call "evil." And Morwen is very similar, in my opinion. I agree she lets her pride and honor get in the way of the needs of her child, Turin. However, I can't beat up on her for being a bad person.

This is what makes me laugh though at the critics who will say Tolkien only wrote "completely bad or completely good" characters. I mean there are a few characters who, whether intended or not, come off that way. But, for the most part, I think there are more Denethors and Morwens than there are Elronds and Gandalfs.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I think what Zil meant was that she could have gone with him; but the text says that her pregnancy was advanced by that time and journeying out of the question for her, so she can't be blamed for that.

No, the pregnancy was not her fault. The text says though, that she delayed her decision on what to do in the event Morgoth won the battle, even though Húrin had specifically told her not to wait, but to leave as soon as she heard of ill news. She did not do so. And the desire to avoid being an "alms-guest" of Thingol is cited as one of the things foremost on her mind.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

As far as Morwen, I really have no opinion, or it's kind of similar to my opinion on Denethor. Many flaws as a parent as a leader, but I can't hate them because I do see good traits, possibly redeeming traits. The primary one being, Denethor always remained stoutly opposed to Sauron. Minas Tirith was the stalwart tower of resistance, and Denethor bolstered that resistance until the very end when he lost all hope in the strength of his house and realm. Not the most sympathetic person, but not someone I could hate or call "evil." And Morwen is very similar, in my opinion. I agree she lets her pride and honor get in the way of the needs of her child, Turin. However, I can't beat up on her for being a bad person.

I never meant to say that Morwen, or Túrin for that matter, were all bad. My point on both is that whatever mischief Morgoth had in mind for them was exacerbated by their personality flaws: in both cases pride was the main factor. If they'd been able to curb that, the effects of the curse would likely have been lessened.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Boro

The tricky part is, Pride can lead you to greatness, and reaching accomplishments that no one thought possible. With that said, the same pride is a slippery slope to one's own downfall. I think in the case with Feanor and Turin, is while their pride was their reason for achieving Greatness, their pride leads to the inevitable Fall.

Agreed on all counts.

So, when talking about the context of Middle-earth, it doesn't matter whether one agrees with Tolkien's interpretation of ofermod. What matters is Tolkien's opinion on it and how it's present in his story. Ofermod is thus the "bad pride," it is the "excessive pride," which can be seen in a wide range of Tolkien's characters.

Ok, I see it now. I see your point.

As far as Morwen, I really have no opinion, or it's kind of similar to my opinion on Denethor. Many flaws as a parent as a leader, but I can't hate them because I do see good traits, possibly redeeming traits.

Ah, I think I see the source of our disagreement about Morwen. You see the bad side of her, but say that she is redeemed in your eyes because of her good qalities. I, on the other hand, do not condemn her because of these traits, and therefore she has nothing to be redeemed from in my eyes.

Although, as you said, Tolkien's opinion on ofermod is not too positive, Morwen is a character loved and respected, despite her seemingly excessive pride (not only by me ). The whole Narn is written with the idea that Hurin's family brought ruin to all around them and brought about the Fall of three Elven kingdoms, but nonetheless are revered.

This is what makes me laugh though at the critics who will say Tolkien only wrote "completely bad or completely good" characters. I mean there are a few characters who, whether intended or not, come off that way. But, for the most part, I think there are more Denethors and Morwens than there are Elronds and Gandalfs.

I don't think even Gandalf and Elrond are really completely good. And Morgoth is not completely bad. They might be very very very light- or dark-grey, but not white or black. (Gndalf the White, haha...). I remember saying this on a different thread but I can't remember which; someone cited there Tolkien's letter in which he specifically said that Melkor is not purely evil.

Originally Posted by Inzil

No, the pregnancy was not her fault. The text says though, that she delayed her decision on what to do in the event Morgoth won the battle, even though Húrin had specifically told her not to wait, but to leave as soon as she heard of ill news. She did not do so. And the desire to avoid being an "alms-guest" of Thingol is cited as one of the things foremost on her mind.

I do believe it also said that she was "cheated by false hope", and believed that Hurin will soon return to Dor-lomin.

I never meant to say that Morwen, or Túrin for that matter, were all bad. My point on both is that whatever mischief Morgoth had in mind for them was exacerbated by their personality flaws: in both cases pride was the main factor. If they'd been able to curb that, the effects of the curse would likely have been lessened.

But they weren't, and it wasn't. And what's there to do about it, except for try to understand why they weren't?

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I do believe it also said that she was "cheated by false hope", and believed that Hurin will soon return to Dor-lomin.

This is correct and, I think, an important point. It's easy to ascribe all the mistakes made by Morwen and Turin to the 'negative' trait of pride, and indeed pride is a critical component in their tragedy, but in my view, the 'positive' traits of hope, pity, and compassion play just as large a role. That duality is nicely exemplified by Morwen's hesitation after the Nirnaeth, the cause for which the narrator seems to ascribe more or less equally to her hope that Hurin will return and her unwillingness to accept charity from Thingol.