Unfinished Tales - Part One - II - Narn I Hín Húrin

[Formendacil]

Part of the problem with Túrin's pride--since we're on the subject--is that he is ruled by it, rather than ruling it himself. Normally, this backwards reality of self control is thought of with regards to his fate ("Master of Fate by fate mastered"), but "Master of Pride by pride mastered" would have applied as well--if Túrin had ever claimed the title "Master of Pride" (which would have been ridiculously vain of him if he had anyway...). Perhaps it's just as well that he didn't.

The thing is, Túrin had things to properly be proud of: a great father, a great mother, and skills of his own that, Tolkien certainly indicates, were greater than any (or at least many) of those around him: when the Dragonhelm left Doriath's borders, he was sorely missed; when the outlaws took him in, he was rightly recognized.

The problem for Túrin is that he made no distinctions in his pride about when it was appropriate, when it was not. His challenges to the staid Elf-lords who wanted to avoid battle with Morgoth were not necessarily bad advice--note that Ulmo's message to Turgon was, like Túrin's advice, counter to conventional "Elvenking wisdom."

The problem for Túrin is, of course, his pride. I don't think there's any way one can deny that, and I certainly don't wish too. The thing is, he wasn't without reasons to be proud, and Túrin's pride was *NOT* enough to ensure his downfall: Glaurung had to enspell him at the Fall of Nargothrond to make sure he didn't go after Finduilas (about which, I would say, it is strongly suggested that Túrin would have avoided his fate--which was incest-driven, after all--if he had rescued Finduilas). Notably too, the fate that Glaurung tempts him away from Finduilas with is *not* pride in his neglected Lordship of Dor-Lómin or something similar, but concern for his mother and sister. Admittedly, Túrin's pride is connected to his feelings for his family, but I do not think it is a clear-cut case of "bad pride" that condemns Túrin.

And, likewise, Morwen. Without adding paragraphs more here, I daresay our judgment of her would be very different if the outcomes had been otherwise, or if we did not know what they would be.

[Galadriel55]

Formy, you said it better that I did!

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Admittedly, Túrin's pride is connected to his feelings for his family, but I do not think it is a clear-cut case of "bad pride" that condemns Túrin.

No, I didn't say it was. I said that pride isn't always a bad thing, and that Morwen's pride is understandable.


And yet another note on this topic: between life and honour Morwen always goes for honour. And her honour is closely related to her pride.

[Pitchwife]

For me, the most interesting elaboration in this part of the Narn, compared to the Silmarillion, is the chapter about Túrin's childhood, which helps me understand his character as an adult better. For one, there's his love and mourning for his sister Lalaith, which is but briefly mentioned in the Sil but treated more fully here. Secondly, there's the character of Sador Labadal, who is one of my all-time favourite characters in Tolkien's writings (as I never tire of mentioning), for several reasons.

First, I have a soft spot for well-handled handicapped characters (which is why Bran and Tyrion are among my favourites in ASOIAF [/aside to the initiates]). Second, he's that rare beast, an everyday unheroic mortal Man of the First Age, and gives us a glimpse of how normal Men of that time lived their lives while the likes of Beren and Húrin were busy fighting Morgoth (a theme which will be further elaborated later with the outlaws whom Túrin joins). Third, the interaction and relationship between him and Túrin shows us the more endearing side of Túrin's character, the kindness and pity of which he was capable as a child, although it is all too often overshadowed by his ofermod in his later life. I would reckon these few pages among the finest character-driven writing in Tolkien's works on the Elder Days, along with the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. And I must say that Morwen's disapproval of Túrin's gift of a knife to Sador is one reason why I find it hard to like her.

G55, I sort of see where you're coming from with your defense of Morwen*. She's certainly an interesting character (like e.g. Fëanor and many others, including Túrin himself) - great to have in a story, but not that great to have to live with. The problem with her, as I see it, is not her pride as such, but the fact that in case of doubt, she would put her pride and honour above all other considerations - including the needs of her young son (who missed her sorely in Doriath) and the safety of her unborn babe. Pride as such is OK, but you should know when it's wise to swallow it, and Morwen never did. This at least is one negative trait Túrin seems to have inherited from her.

I like your idea about Morwen=cold and Húrin=heat. Húrin certainly comes across as more warm-hearted (i.e. more generous and affectionate) character, which is why I instinctively find him more sympathetic, but I haven't yet considered that a higher soul-temperature may be just as pernicious if taken to the extreme. Good point.

I also very much like Formy's arguments to the point that nothing in Túrin's character would be enough to ensure all-out tragedy (even in the face of Morgoth's curse?) without Glaurung's additional meddling; but that's matter for chapters to come.
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*(PS. - It turns out I can't rep you at the moment, but consider yourself virtually repped for your posts on this thread; that was well thought and well argued.)

[Pitchwife]

Also:

Originally Posted by G55

Why do I feel like I'm turning into Urwen?

Shush! We've been lucky so far.

[Galadriel55]

Pitch mentioned a few things that sparked some thought...

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

For one, there's his love and mourning for his sister Lalaith, which is but briefly mentioned in the Sil but treated more fully here.

I wonder why this isn't labeled as "the first sorrow of Turin". Was he then too young to understand the full impact of Lalaith's death?

Originally Posted by Pitchie

Secondly, there's the character of Sador Labadal, who is one of my all-time favourite characters in Tolkien's writings (as I never tire of mentioning), for several reasons.

I think it is also interesting to compare Sador with Brandir. They are, in a way, interchangable. Both have a limp, both are wise, and both are close to Turin. However, Turin couldn't have treated them more differently. Just comparing Hopafoot vs Clubfoot, and name given out of pity vs an insult, gives enough information. Labadal was more of a mentor (and thus clearly superior and demanding respect) and Brandir more of a friend/equal, but that still leaves Turin's behavious to them. It shows how much Turin's tragedies have hardened him over the years; he is going from a kind, gentle boy to a harsh, demanding, about-to-explode man. As you said, his good qualities are often overshadowed.

Originally Posted by Pitch

The problem with her, as I see it, is not her pride as such, but the fact that in case of doubt, she would put her pride and honour above all other considerations - including the needs of her young son (who missed her sorely in Doriath) and the safety of her unborn babe. Pride as such is OK, but you should know when it's wise to swallow it, and Morwen never did. This at least is one negative trait Túrin seems to have inherited from her.

Yes!

Originally Posted by Pitch

*(PS. - It turns out I can't rep you at the moment, but consider yourself virtually repped for your posts on this thread; that was well thought and well argued.)

As good as having another green square under my CP. Thank you.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I wonder why this isn't labelled as "the first sorrow of Turin". Was he then too young to understand the full impact of Lalaith's death?

Well, if one looks at what *is* labelled the First Sorrow of Túrin, we see that it is his separation from his mother. From its location in the story, this is Túrin's first major sorrow *after* Morgoth cursed Húrin and his family. I might be the only one reading it this way, but it seems to me an implicit possibility that the author* of the Narn sees this as the first effect of the Curse in Túrin's life.

The reason I distinguish in my footnote between the author and Tolkien is because this reading seems too... unlikely. There is, first of all, the logical fallacy of post hoc, ergo propter hoc (after something, therefore because of it). More importantly, though, it doesn't seem congruent to me with Tolkien's paradoxically balanced treatment of fate and free will, which comes to the fore ESPECIALLY in the Narn.

This leads me to one of two possibilities:

1.) "Dírhavel" is right to lay this sorrow at the foot of the Curse, and therefore his editorialising of this as "the first of the sorrows of Túrin." Thus, this is NOT a case of post hoc, ergo propter hoc, but Tolkien's way of suggesting that this isn't only incidentally after the Curse, but in fact proceeds from the Curse.

2.) Tolkien is *not* making the Curse the cause of the sorrow, but is using Dírhavel to suggest that it *is* in order to further the paradox-balance in the story between Free Will and Fate.

If we go with the second reading (towards which I lean), we may still have to account for why this is the first sorrow of Túrin--we could always call it Dírhavel's editorializing and then forget about it, but that seems too easy and is unsporting anyway. There are, after all, legitimate sorrows--major sorrows--in Túrin's life so far: the aforementioned early death of Lalaith and the the loss of Húrin being foremost, and the loss of his father very closely parallels the actual case of the loss of his mother.

The only thing I can come up with about this is that the separation from Morwen was unnatural in a way that the separation from Lalaith (via death) and Húrin (via imprisonment) is not, and I think this holds some water. After all, the sickness that killed Lalaith was *not* primarily directed at her or any one individual (shades of Urwen notwithstanding) and although Húrin's imprisonment IS the result of a directed evil on Morgoth's part, one sort of EXPECTS soldiers to die or be imprisoned in war.

One does NOT expect mothers to send their sons away alone, and virtually orphaned... which brings me to a conclusion that rather neatly parallels my last post on this thread: that Túrin's sorrows are not (contra my Dírhavel editorial theory) the result of Morgoth's Curse, but the result of Morwen's choice--and, to continue on that thread of reasoning, perhaps the reason Morwen gets a bad rap is because we empathize with Túrin and feel the sorrow of his loss with him, wondering what mother would do that to her son.

And a thought that I'm having through all this, though I have nothing to make of it, is the fact that Tolkien lost his father and then his mother and was fostered "in Doriath."




*Who, incidentally, may not reflect Tolkien's own view of the matter.

[Galadriel55]

That's a really thorough and in-depth explanation, Form. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Formy

The only thing I can come up with about this is that the separation from Morwen was unnatural in a way that the separation from Lalaith (via death) and Húrin (via imprisonment) is not, and I think this holds some water.

I would agree with this, though for slightly different reasons. Going to Doriath was the first sorrow that Turin accepted by free will (there you have the theme again). He didn't have much choice, but nonetheless it was not something that he did not have any part in. He deliberately walked the way from Dor-lomin to Doriath. If he could not stop or control the Black Breath or Hurin's imprisonment, the separation from Morwen was his first self-inflicted sorrow.

Though there's a flaw in this reasoning, because the second sorrow of Turin is said to be when Morwen didn't follow him in spring. This was also out of his control.

So yeah, you're probably right about the Curse.

...wondering what mother would do that to her son.

This is the one time that she swallows her pride, and it's another reason to dislike her.

She's sending him to safety - and you're asking what mother would do that?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

She's sending him to safety - and you're asking what mother would do that?

I don't think anyone would blame Morwen for desiring to keep her son free, and out of thralldom. But we always return to the fact that Túrin's sorrow was not due only to leaving his home, but being forcibly parted from his family. It needn't have been that way, and Morwen's pride was the sole cause.

Moreover, though [Morwen] was willing that her son should be fostered in the halls of another, after the manner of that time, she would not yet humble her pride to be an alms-guest, not even of a king. Therefore the voice of Húrin, or the memory of his voice was denied, and the first strand of the fate of Túrin was woven.

If the family had travelled to Doriath together, it seems clear Túrin's "fate" would have been altered. Whether that would have been enough to wholly escape the curse is debatable, but still: as with he son later, Morwen aided the curse's workings with her own personal choices.