Thorin in the Blue Mountains

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Why Thorin couldn't have gathered all of these dwarves that were seemingly in the area together to attempt to retake the mountain I don't know...unless perhaps the dwarves just didn't fancy him that much and liked Dain better.

Granted Thorin does seem in many ways to exemplify the least (to other races, at least) qualities of the Dwarves, but he was still the Heir of Durin, eldest of all the Dwarven houses. Was he really that odious that his own people eschewed him in favour of his kin? If so, that doesn't seem to speak well for him.

[Kuruharan]

I don't know that "odious" is a good term, and yes he was the King of Durin's Folk. However, Dain appears, at least to my eyes, to be a more respected and rather more grounded individual.

And then there is the fact that he was the one who actually killed Azog which made him a hero at a young age. Thorin didn't have much (that we know of) in the way of accomplishments to compete with that.

Mostly at this point I am just throwing theories out to rationalize the choices Tolkien told in stories to his kids that he later incorporated into his larger mythos.

[Alfirin]

There is also the fact that at no point are we told that sucession amoung the dwarves is stricly primogeneric, that is that the oldest son of the current (or most recent) ruler is ipso facto the heir to the throne. Given Tolkein's love of Nordic tradtions, I think it is possible he imagined Dwarven sucession more along Nordic lines, where (if I understand correctly) often any male member of the ruling family was considered a viable candidate for next kind, and getting the throne relied as much on whether or not the court and people wanted you as who your father was and when in the line of his kids you were born. Being the heir of Durin's bloodline may help Thorin's claim, but it may not be enough to make him Dwarf heir apparent on it's own.

[Inziladun]

To add a bit to what I was thinking earlier, about the Ered Luin lacking precious metals, and about the Dwarves' obsession with them, there's this from Appendix A, ROTK, that after the Battle of Azanulbizar:

Thráin and Thorin with what remained of their following (among whom were Balin and Glóin)....made a home in exile in the east of the Ered Luin beyond the Lune. Of iron were most of the things that they forged in those days, but they prospered after their fashion, and their numbers slowly increased. But, as Thrór had said, the Ring needed gold to breed gold, and of that or any other precious metal they had little or none.

Looks to me as if Thorin was just too poor to be taken seriously as a king in the Ered Luin.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

There is also the fact that at no point are we told that sucession amoung the dwarves is stricly primogeneric, that is that the oldest son of the current (or most recent) ruler is ipso facto the heir to the throne. Given Tolkein's love of Nordic tradtions, I think it is possible he imagined Dwarven sucession more along Nordic lines, where (if I understand correctly) often any male member of the ruling family was considered a viable candidate for next kind, and getting the throne relied as much on whether or not the court and people wanted you as who your father was and when in the line of his kids you were born. Being the heir of Durin's bloodline may help Thorin's claim, but it may not be enough to make him Dwarf heir apparent on it's own.

That is an interesting point. It seems very reasonable, particularly regarding the Nordic link.

However, to the best of my knowledge we know of no case where the eldest surviving son didn't follow his father...of course our knowledge is limited.

Looks to me as if Thorin was just too poor to be taken seriously as a king in the Ered Luin.

That sounds likely to be true.

[Puddleglum]

More likely, it was simply that there were not enough of a concentration of Durin's Dwarves present in the Erid Luin to constitute a "Kingdom."

• First they had their mansions at Khazad-dum.
• When driven out, Most of them followed Thrain I to Erebor, where they established their new kingdom Under The Mountain.
• Then Thorin I removed to the Grey Mtns where "most of Durin's folk were <now> gathering."
• Later, after Dain I was slain, "most of Durin's folk abandoned the Grey Mountains" and while many went to the Iron Hills, Thror and the rest of Durin's folk returned to Erebor.
• After the coming of Smaug, it's an open question why Thror and the remnant didn't go to the Iron Hills - maybe fearing that Gror wouldn't have been happy to be displaced by Thror in his own home - maybe Thror was too proud to take over lordship in a place built up be someone else, especially his brother.
• However, given that few escaped the sack of Erebor, and the Iron Hills dwarves likely weren't interested in uprooting to travel to poorer mines in the Ered Luin - especially as they were over 1200 miles away - Thror (and Thrain & Thorin) had only a few followers - not sufficient to say "this is our Kingdom".

Once, however, Thorin's quest was successful, the Iron Hills dwarves *were* willing to relocate to Erebor - only about 200 miles - and renew the Kingdom - Erebor being a far more worthy destination than simple "Iron Mines" in the Blue Mtns.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Once, however, Thorin's quest was successful, the Iron Hills dwarves *were* willing to relocate to Erebor - only about 200 miles - and renew the Kingdom - Erebor being a far more worthy destination than simple "Iron Mines" in the Blue Mtns.

The general consensus, one which I agree with, is that the Iron Hills were not abandoned during this process so its not like someone couldn't stay there if they wanted to after Dain left.

[FlimFlamSam]

Kuruharan spoke: [However, to the best of my knowledge we know of no case where the eldest surviving son didn't follow his father...of course our knowledge is limited.]
I'm not so sure about that.

Balin, Lord of Moria. Not the son of a previous king.
In strict "eldest male relation to the last king" ascension, that would be Dain II as the "rightful heir" to Khazad-dum after Thorin II's death Would Fili and Kili count at all even if they had lived, considering the note concerning sister-son dwarves in the HOME Peoples of Middle-earth? Who knows.

Durin VII reclaimed Khazad-dum (as per HOME Peoples of Middle-earth son of Thorin III--and only "guessed at" in Lord of the Rings). He did not remain (if he even took the title) King Under the Mountain (Erebor).