Thorin in the Blue Mountains

[LadyBrooke]

After a search that found this,

Originally Posted by UT, in the Tale of G&C

Many Dwarves leaving their old cities in Ered Luin go to Moria and swell its numbers.

which would support Ered Luin being diminished...and the quote of Gandalf's about Thorin being in exile:

For just as I was nearing Bree I was overtake by Thorin Oakenshield, who lived then in exile beyond the the northwestern borders of the Shire.

Which leads me to suspect that Thorin was more like one of the government's in exile during the World Wars, who didn't try to establish new kingdoms or countries.

I still have not managed to find the quote you're talking about, Mith...of course, that's likely because I've never studied the dwarves in the detail I have the elves. That's also why I have no real thoughts on this...

[Inziladun]

Another thought: the major Dwarven settlements we see in the books seem to have been chosen for their proximity to precious metals. At least that can be said for Khazad-dûm and mithril.

I don't know if it's ever said what sort of metals or gems were found in the Blue Mountains, but the Dwarves had quite a long time to search them while Nogrod and Belegost were standing. The range was diminished after the War of Wrath and the drowning of Beleriand, so maybe by Thorin Oakenshield's time the Dwarves saw Ered Luin as being mostly played out, and thus not a suitable place to establish a new, grandiose dwarf-kingdom.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

I still have not managed to find the quote you're talking about, Mith...of course, that's likely because I've never studied the dwarves in the detail I have the elves. That's also why I have no real thoughts on this...

Ah well I am more of an elf-fancier myself. I haven't found UT yet but in the Hobbit Thorin says "Long ago in my grandfather Thror's time our family was driven out of the far North, and came back with all their wealth and tools" (my italics). After Smaug's attack on the lonely mountain "we went away, and we have had to earn our livings as best we could up and down the lands, often sinking as low as blacksmith-work or even coal-mining".

If this is my sole source I am I bit surprised since I read the Hobbit so seldom compared to UT and it will bug me til I find what I think I was remembering! But at least I haven't imagined it entirely...

[Kuruharan]

leaving aside Thorin, why wouldn't one of his forebears have thought of doing so

Because I needed a nice clear and concise title to get my point across.

maybe there already was a Dwarven King of the Blue Mountains when Thorin came there. I mean, do we know what happened to the Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod (the Firebeards and Broadbeams, IIRC) after the drowning of Beleriand? Did they all migrate eastward and merge with the Longbeards of Khazad-dûm

We never hear of a king or two already being there but that doesn't entirely rule out the possibility. I had always had the impression that Belegost and Nogrod were both destroyed in the drowning of Beleriand, but there were still some dwarves there.

as the Chieftains of the Dunedain did not call themselves King or Elrond designate himself "High King of the Noldor" after Gil-galad - there was just too few and nothing that could really be called a realm.

That is a very interesting parallel I had not thought of before.

the major Dwarven settlements we see in the books seem to have been chosen for their proximity to precious metals

Also a distinct possibility.

It probably was some combination of the above...or it could have been Tolkien was trying to tell a story and Thorin being content where he was would have ruined it.

[Rumil]

iirc Thorin had 'Halls' in the Blue Mountains but no doubt they weren't a patch on Erebor.

I think Thorin (or was it Gandalf?) complained that they were mere coal-miners these days, presumably rather than gold- or mithril- miners and master jewellers and craftsmen.

But I like the idea that Thorin refused to even hint at giving up his claim to being King of Erebor by taking or creating some lesser title. And the views of the original Dwarves of the Blue Mountains must have been a major consideration.

[littlemanpoet]

Rumil speaks to something that occurred to me almost immediately as a possible piece of the puzzle. Revenge is close to the heart of Dwarves who have suffered ill at another's hands. So along with all the economic, namesake, and suchlike reasons, I can see Thorin refusing to settle for anything less on the sheer grounds that he will not let Smaug demean him into naming anything but Erebor his kingdom.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Rumil speaks to something that occurred to me almost immediately as a possible piece of the puzzle. Revenge is close to the heart of Dwarves who have suffered ill at another's hands. So along with all the economic, namesake, and suchlike reasons, I can see Thorin refusing to settle for anything less on the sheer grounds that he will not let Smaug demean him into naming anything but Erebor his kingdom.

So was it personality difference between Thorin and his predecessors who did relocate their kingdoms after Moria or did it just seem more likely they would be able to kill a dragon over a something they didn't know what it was at the time?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

So was it personality difference between Thorin and his predecessors who did relocate their kingdoms after Moria or did it just seem more likely they would be able to kill a dragon over a something they didn't know what it was at the time?

Hmm... I see your point. It strikes me that Thorin and company never really did have a plan, at least not until Gandalf came around. But hunger for revenge does not require hope of its achievement, nor bear any resemblance to reality.

One must not forget the simple avarice of Dwarves. A Dwarf King would move his kingdom if he believed there wa a richer mine upon which he could found one. I suspect Thorin did not think he could do better than Erebor, nor even achieve a shadow of that glory, which bears out considering their own talk of having to take on mere smithying and coal mining.

[Galadriel55]

Bringing up a quote:

...Gandalf looked at him with wonder. "That is strange, Thorin Oakenshield," he said. "For I have thought of you also; and though I am on my way to the Shire, it was in my mind that is the way also to your halls."
"Call them so, if you will," said Thorin. "They are only poor lodgings in exile. But you would be welcome there, if you would come. ..."

So on one hand he's in exile, ie not in his land. On the other hand, he has enough power to welcome Gandalf.