Thorin in the Blue Mountains

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Just think, if the Orcs had had the presence of mind, they could have rigged a Balrog costume, dressed one of the larger ones up in it, and taken Erebor from Dáin.

Orcs having a presense of mind? What new insanity is that?!

No, really. A Balrog has a presense that no orc - with or without a mind - can duplicate: its willpower. My theory is that most "Balrog duels" (or any Ainu battles, for that matter) involve a contest of wills as much as physical prowess.

I think that a jig-saw puzzle is another way to visualise the Balrog/Elf/Dwarf triangle. If the pieces match, you have an "equal chance battle". If they don't, then... Well, let's put it this way. You need to have the right protection for an enemy's weapon. A shield will not hide you from poisonous gasses, and a gas mask won't protect from swords (to give a crude example). Saying this, the elves have a matching defense against at least one of the Balrog's weapons: their own spiritual/will power. That way, the victory is left to the better swordsman. Dwarves have a willpower of their own, but on a different level and in a different direction, if you get my meaning. The pieces don't match.

I take those to mean that Thorin simply didn't have the numbers for a flat-out assault on Smaug. Why not? Because a large number of the Erebor survivors had fled to the Iron Hills after Smaug's arrival. Why wouldn't they have flocked to him in the Ered Luin, if not because they didn't consider the possibility of a real dwarf-kingdom existing there again to be an option? Instead, they stayed close to the Lonely Mountain, the real kingdom of Thorin.

Very interesting. So, for Dwarves, the kingdom is even more important than the king? Thinking of Thror...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Very interesting. So, for Dwarves, the kingdom is even more important than the king? Thinking of Thror...

Indeed, maybe for the Dwarves wealth was an essential factor for a legitimate "kingdom". I recall Thrór, when giving the last of the Seven to Thráin, saying

'This may prove the foundation of new fortune for you yet, though that seems unlikely. But it needs gold to breed gold.'

ROTK Appendix A

[Kuruharan]

So in Middle-earth math, one Noldo > thousands of Dwarves?

I pretty much agree with what everyone else has said.

Why not? Because a large number of the Erebor survivors had fled to the Iron Hills after Smaug's arrival. Why wouldn't they have flocked to him in the Ered Luin, if not because they didn't consider the possibility of a real dwarf-kingdom existing there again to be an option? Instead, they stayed close to the Lonely Mountain, the real kingdom of Thorin.

Maybe they liked Dain better.

I also have the impression that many of the Longbeards were still in places in the Grey Mountains and other spots. Note what Bard and the Elvenking feared in the lead up to the Battle of Five Armies. They were afraid that greater and greater numbers of dwarves would show up. The only places close enough for this to matter to the military situation on the ground at that moment were the Grey Mountains (and possibly in the Mountains of Rhun). Why Thorin couldn't have gathered all of these dwarves that were seemingly in the area together to attempt to retake the mountain I don't know...unless perhaps the dwarves just didn't fancy him that much and liked Dain better.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Why Thorin couldn't have gathered all of these dwarves that were seemingly in the area together to attempt to retake the mountain I don't know...unless perhaps the dwarves just didn't fancy him that much and liked Dain better.

Granted Thorin does seem in many ways to exemplify the least (to other races, at least) qualities of the Dwarves, but he was still the Heir of Durin, eldest of all the Dwarven houses. Was he really that odious that his own people eschewed him in favour of his kin? If so, that doesn't seem to speak well for him.

[Kuruharan]

I don't know that "odious" is a good term, and yes he was the King of Durin's Folk. However, Dain appears, at least to my eyes, to be a more respected and rather more grounded individual.

And then there is the fact that he was the one who actually killed Azog which made him a hero at a young age. Thorin didn't have much (that we know of) in the way of accomplishments to compete with that.

Mostly at this point I am just throwing theories out to rationalize the choices Tolkien told in stories to his kids that he later incorporated into his larger mythos.

[Alfirin]

There is also the fact that at no point are we told that sucession amoung the dwarves is stricly primogeneric, that is that the oldest son of the current (or most recent) ruler is ipso facto the heir to the throne. Given Tolkein's love of Nordic tradtions, I think it is possible he imagined Dwarven sucession more along Nordic lines, where (if I understand correctly) often any male member of the ruling family was considered a viable candidate for next kind, and getting the throne relied as much on whether or not the court and people wanted you as who your father was and when in the line of his kids you were born. Being the heir of Durin's bloodline may help Thorin's claim, but it may not be enough to make him Dwarf heir apparent on it's own.

[Inziladun]

To add a bit to what I was thinking earlier, about the Ered Luin lacking precious metals, and about the Dwarves' obsession with them, there's this from Appendix A, ROTK, that after the Battle of Azanulbizar:

Thráin and Thorin with what remained of their following (among whom were Balin and Glóin)....made a home in exile in the east of the Ered Luin beyond the Lune. Of iron were most of the things that they forged in those days, but they prospered after their fashion, and their numbers slowly increased. But, as Thrór had said, the Ring needed gold to breed gold, and of that or any other precious metal they had little or none.

Looks to me as if Thorin was just too poor to be taken seriously as a king in the Ered Luin.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

There is also the fact that at no point are we told that sucession amoung the dwarves is stricly primogeneric, that is that the oldest son of the current (or most recent) ruler is ipso facto the heir to the throne. Given Tolkein's love of Nordic tradtions, I think it is possible he imagined Dwarven sucession more along Nordic lines, where (if I understand correctly) often any male member of the ruling family was considered a viable candidate for next kind, and getting the throne relied as much on whether or not the court and people wanted you as who your father was and when in the line of his kids you were born. Being the heir of Durin's bloodline may help Thorin's claim, but it may not be enough to make him Dwarf heir apparent on it's own.

That is an interesting point. It seems very reasonable, particularly regarding the Nordic link.

However, to the best of my knowledge we know of no case where the eldest surviving son didn't follow his father...of course our knowledge is limited.

Looks to me as if Thorin was just too poor to be taken seriously as a king in the Ered Luin.

That sounds likely to be true.