WW LXXXIX: The Terror of Tol Fuin

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

At, what it it your time? 2am? If I lose all my powers of observation at about 11pm....

I think it was half four - I had fallen asleep waiting for the update on the sick penguin (in NZ not Lommie). We are on summer time which threw me.,.. But it means dead line is 1 am so I may have to vote a bit early lest I once again lapse into a hoglike swoon at the crucial moment. Maybe the sheer excitement will keep me awake but at the moment .......

[A Little Green]

Since the Sally-Bom-business is pretty much the only thing of substance discussed, I think I'll add my two cents on that before (hopefully) moving on to other matters.

Originally Posted by Sally

All right then, to business. Here are some facts to keep in mind.

I am an ordo.

I fully intend to win this game.

I have to be done with this game by, if not before, July 6. If we're not done by then, I'll have to withdraw.

I've never withdrawn from a game before. I have no desire to do so now.

If I don't withdraw, I'll have to be killed at some point (or modfired, which also has never happened).

Statistically, if I'm killed as an ordo, the village cannot win. (The only exception to this is a tie.)


Therefore, we need to kill all the werewolves before the sixth. If we don't, we don't win.

I'm not sure if I get all she's saying but her tone strikes me as more innocent than not.

Originally Posted by Bom

*ahem* It's well known that the first three people to post are the wolves. This means that while I agree with you, Nilp, about Sally being evil, so are you and . . . er . . . me. Um, maybe I should've thought that through more.

By the way, does anybody know whether votes are retractable? If it's in the rules, then I missed it.

If they are, then I'll be voting for DeathWish!Sally until such time as further evidence is presented.

"But she doesn't have a death wish," you say?

You will note that she has not withdrawn, ergo, according to her own (totally not-taken-out-of-context!) words, she will have to be killed.

This strikes me as more fishy than Sally's "ordo reveal". Might sound odd, but the only thing that makes me doubt his guilt is how many people suspect him.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

We have Sally claiming to be an ordo– which almost counts as a reveal, in a small game like this.

We have Bom Tombadillo stating his intention of voting Sally

Originally Posted by Nerwen

If votes were retractable, the rules would have said so (unless Zil wants to come to life to correct me).

Now, here's a question for you, Bom. Obviously, your reason for voting Sally is a joke. What about your intention of voting her as a placeholder candidate? Was that a joke too?

Unless I missed something, Nerwen is the first to comment the issue. She takes a very neutral tone, summarising what the two had done and asking a clarification from Bom. Careful.

Originally Posted by Shasta

In any case, the only actual game-related thing thus far that I see is Bom and his stated intention to vote Sally "if nothing better comes along", and Nerwen pointing it out, to which I also would like an answer, Bom.

Shasta pretty much echoes Nerwen, not taking sides, either.

Originally Posted by Mith

Interesting - I usually think not knowing the rules is suspicious - which mean Bom is looking interesting ... rule query, first post and this offer to more or less "mercy lynch" Sally. I have been in games where even one of those was a fast track to the gallows on Day One....Shasta..i am really beginning to understand your nerves! But would also be interested to hear Bom answer Nerwen's question.

Mith is the second to press Bom to answer Nerwen. While I am of the opinion that neither knowing or not knowing the rules can be taken as a sign of wolvery, I can't really quarrel with Mith's conclusion (=Bom is looking interesting).

Then we have Kit's novel on Sally and Bom. I'm not going to quote it in full, but rather extracts I found interesting.

Originally Posted by Kit

So we know for sure if we're still a struggling village looking to kill some wolves by the 6th Sally is out. Why bother telling us this? If she's an ordo she can't protect, dream of, or kill anyone. She can only vote. Of course we're out one vote which isn't good, but at this point in the game why bother saying anything?
1) She's a gifted and she wants to ensure her survival so we can get as much use out of her as possible before her inevitable death.
2) She's a wolf and she wants to ensure survival under the guise of innocence by her self-possessed "this village can't win with a dead ordo Sally"
3) She's a foolish villager who has now left herself open for attacks at night.

Sally pretty much signed her own death warrant with that post anyway you look at it, but she wants us all believe we can't win the game as a village without her.

I'm inclined to agree with the first half of that last sentence. I'm not as sure of her three options regarding Sally's role. 1) Why speculate aloud about someone possibly being Gifted? 2) Possible, I guess. Not what I'd expect a Sallywolf to say, but the logic is sound. 3) Like Sally herself said, later on: an ordo dead by Night means no Gifted killed that same Night. An ordo is open for attacks at Night in any case.

If Sally really is innocent, gifted or ordo, there's a good chance the wolves will take advantage and get her in the Night. I doubt she'd be foolish enough to say anything if she was a gifted. I might think the same thing of her being a wolf if she had stopped after saying she had to withdraw on the 6th. The second half of her post looks awfully suspicious to me. Still, there's doubt, it's a bold move to make, especially so early on Day 1 and in such a small game.

This paragraph makes more or less sense. I don't agree about the second half of Sally's post looking suspicious, but I can see how it could look that way.

Originally Posted by Kit

What? Who does that? Mith and Nerwen both commented on this. And I'm inclined to agree this is pretty shifty work. If you're unsure of Sally and are only doing it as a mercy-killing why not wait until Day progresses? Very little had actually been said yet and he's already heading down this road. And more alarming he is only using her to hold a vote until he digs up someone else to vote for.

I can understand suspicions of Sally, but simply killing her because she's going to die seems pretty wolfish. It's almost like "she's admitted she's an ordo, best to get one villager out of the way by Day and another by Night."

I more or less agree with Kit in this.

If Bom is guilty he's trying to steer votes to Sally under the guise of a mercy kill to keep conversation of away from him and his cohorts. He's hardly started a bandwagon or anything, but a wolf could keep all eyes on Sally today so the real threat is forgotten. Notice he doesn't say he thinks she's a wolf or an innocent. If he's innocent he was very bold and foolish to suggest voting for Sally just because she had to be gone by the 6th.

So basically, you suspect that either Sally or Bom is evil, but not both?

Originally Posted by Sally

Ah, but you see, dear Kit, if the wolves try to kill me in the Night, they won't be targeting one of the gifteds. So not only have I now made the announcement of when we'll need to win the game by very clear, I've created possible confusion among the wolf pack.

A wolf pack which I now believe you might be a part of, precious.

And now, a list!

Possibly evil (by basis of reacting suspiciously to my post):
Kit
Bom (depending on whether or not he was entirely joking, and even then)
Nerwen (for defending-ish me far too quickly for Nerwen)

I'm not sure here. I'm inclined to find Sally innocent, but I'd be leaning that way on Kit too. As for Nerwen, I wouldn't call her post even defending-ish of Sally. To me, it looked careful and decidedly neutral.

Originally Posted by Galadriel

You failed to notice (or purposely ignored) the fact that one ordo can make a difference in the outcome simply by being alive.

I don't think that Sally would have endangered herself that much in her first post if she has a special role. However, I see what you mean about Bom. He's really pushing a sallywagon, or trying to.

I agree with all but the last sentence here. Pushing a Sallywagon? A single post declaring an intent to vote somebody if nothing better appears doesn't equal bandwagon in my book.

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Kit is #2 on my suspision list, for saying that Bom is pushing a sallywagon and pushing it herself yet further.

I don't think Kit's reason for suspecting Bom was that he considered voting Sally, but the reasons he had for it (mainly the "mercy kill" idea).

Originally Posted by Galadriel

But no wolf will kill her after your post! That would be so obvious! The only explanation I could come up with is that you are a wolf who speaks while plotting who will be the first victim. And you're debating about Bom to make yourself look unconnected to him.

So in summary we have Nerwen and Shasta commenting on the issue while remaining neutral, Mith voicing slight suspicion on Bom, Kit suspecting both Sally and Bom are wolves but not together, and Galadriel more or less accusing both Bom and Kit, while Sally herself suspects both Kit and Bom. My brain hurts.


EDIT: x-ed with the lovely ladies Galadriel, Sally and Mith

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

I agree with all but the last sentence here. Pushing a Sallywagon? A single post declaring an intent to vote somebody if nothing better appears doesn't equal bandwagon in my book.

Well, maybe I misinterpreted Bom's post, but he seemed to give the message "let's vote for Sally unless there's an obvious wolf, because she might drop out". Doesn't it sound more fishy when put that way?

Originally Posted by Greenie

...Galadriel more or less accusing both Bom and Kit...

Well, maybe not really accusing, but strongly suspecting and keeping an eye out. There still isn't much info to really base an accusation on, but enough to have a suspicion. If in my reply to Kit I made it sound like a direct accusation, I didn't intend to, and blame it on my little brother who was reading what I typed over my shoulder and kept shouting questions in my ear like "why are you talking about wolves?" and all kinds of other nonesense.

I still have the impression that Sally is innocent. Kit and Bom don't make a lot of sense to me. Bom - for reasons above, and Kit - for saying "Bom is up to something but I agree with him" in a less exaggerated form.

Now that I think about it more, it's unlikely that they both are baddies. Kit wouldn't set so many arguments against him (with which personally I agree) if he was her packmate. It's too much of a risk.

Edit: xed since my last post

[satansaloser2005]

And now that I've sparked discussion, I think I'll vanish for a bit. I should be back in an hour or two, and then I'll be around until the end of the Day.

Do continue to be interesting while I'm gone, won't you?


X'd with Kit

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

And now that I've sparked discussion, I think I'll vanish for a bit. I should be back in an hour or two, and then I'll be around until the end of the Day.

Do continue to be interesting while I'm gone, won't you?

You sure like being the center of attention!

[Galadriel55]

Kit, I see what you mean about Sally being cobblerish - the "center of attention". But she does not sound like a wolf.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

You sure like being the center of attention!

Well yes, but I also hate wasted Day Ones, especially when I'm on a short leash time-wise. People are talking, and formulating ideas about what I meant, and generally leaving evidence for us to use later. I'd say that's far from cobblerish, dear. It's called being proactive.


To clarify, my point about Kit looking fishy is completely legit. Her posts smell funny to me.

I'm not willing to vote Bom toDay, but I'll be keeping an eye on him simply because I can.

Mith also looks strange, but it might just be the fact that she's trying to tear myself and my dark prince apart. Harrumph.

I'd have to consider everyone else further before voting them.

(I just realized it was a bit rude of me to not clarify my suspicions before I left, especially since the Finns and Co. likely will have to vote soon.)


Walking out the door now. Tick tock, little ones....

[A Little Green]

I'm off to bed pretty much now, meaning that I get to cast the first vote of the Day! I'm not sure about this, but it being the best shot I have,

++ Bom

I think I've explained enough in my previous posts, but in short - planning to vote Sally because of her "death wish" strikes me as an idea that benefits the baddies more than us.

[Mithalwen]

I look strange? How rude. But nevertheless I don't post pictures of myself online to prevent widespread trauma...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Hullo all.

Looks like we have a careful village, with no-one really interested in throwing a cat among the pigeons. Even Nilp's fishing expedition is lacking in effect.

But I would not despair, and instead advise that one can't get something from nothing, so to speak: talk for the sake of it is just that, and unhelpful (to me, at least).

The discussion on the first day is rarely any use as it happens; its chief merit is as a record on which to look back. So to see all the usual hand-wringing about our effectiveness at this stage in the investigation is amusing and possibly telling.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Well, maybe I misinterpreted Bom's post, but he seemed to give the message "let's vote for Sally unless there's an obvious wolf, because she might drop out". Doesn't it sound more fishy when put that way?

Of course it does. I don't know if we can talk of misinterpretation, in your case or in mine, but rather of differing interpretations. The way I read Bom's post, he was not necessarily suggesting others follow his course of action - indeed, he seemed to expect others to object to it - but rather just stating what he was going to do. Which of course doesn't mean what he was going to do wasn't fishy per se. Fishy and bandwagoning don't necessarily equal each other. Oh dear. I'm flip-flopping enough to make my sister proud.

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Well, maybe not really accusing, but strongly suspecting and keeping an eye out. There still isn't much info to really base an accusation on, but enough to have a suspicion. If in my reply to Kit I made it sound like a direct accusation, I didn't intend to, and blame it on my little brother who was reading what I typed over my shoulder and kept shouting questions in my ear like "why are you talking about wolves?" and all kinds of other nonesense.

Yes, accusing was probably too forceful a word. Your suspicion, however, seemed rather stronger than, say, Mith's, which is why I applied a different term. (Also, I think little brothers are cute, but maybe that's because I've never had one. )


EDIT: x-ed with 2xGaladriel

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

I agree with all but the last sentence here. Pushing a Sallywagon? A single post declaring an intent to vote somebody if nothing better appears doesn't equal bandwagon in my book.

It isn't a bandwagon, but he certainly pushed Sally to the front with his declaration (joke or not) to vote for Sally based on her second post. Like I said earlier this could be a way to get the village to look away from others and focus in on one person. It could also be a joke that no one got.

And Greenie you mentioned I suspect both Sally and Bom, but that I believe it's one or the other. I can't see any advantage for two wolves to be making a declaration that they'd be killed, modfired, withdrawn by the 6th AND to have a fellow wolf bring up the idea of killing them based on that.

I think Bom looks worse. No one has really spoken today and so little has any substance. If I could vote for everyone isn't being helpful or at least trying to add I'd vote for most everyone who has spoken. This quiet village is making it hard to formulate any real opinions. And for now I stand by mine.

People have said I look wolfish for what I've said about Sally. I'm grasping at straws to get the ball rolling, so whatever. I still don't know if I believe she's innocent. My biggest problem is she did this in-game rather than on the admin thread and she seems utterly self-possessed. If this game had a cobbler I'd say it was Sally. She claims her actions can confuse the wolves, but I see it can be confusing for the village too.

I doubt I'll vote for Sally today. I don't trust her, but Bom looks worse for his actions.

I will be leaving my house in two or three hours and I don't have any assurances I will be near a computer to vote closer to the DL. I'd love to see more, but if there's a flood of conversation I'll be just as lost as I am now when it's time for me to go for the day.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I think Bom looks worse. No one has really spoken today and so little has any substance. If I could vote for everyone isn't being helpful or at least trying to add I'd vote for most everyone who has spoken. This quiet village is making it hard to formulate any real opinions. And for now I stand by mine.

I doubt I'll vote for Sally today. I don't trust her, but Bom looks worse for his actions.
.

Not speaking at all is hardly helpful either. I would prefer a bit of chat to silence or even a lot of regurgitation. At least you get what someone says for themself rather than trying to look helpful but not actually saying anything.

I don't know what Sally is playing at though. It is ten days til she says she has to go and in a game this size it is unlikely to be an issue. And apart from the ethics of participating in a game knowing you may not be able to see it through, I can't see any benefit of drawing attention to it so far in advance. I may be being thick but I can't see it being a helpful tactic for any role we have in the game. A hunter needs to get themselves killed to fulfil their purpose but we don't have one and it would be impossible for a Hunter to be in a position to make a good call that early in the game.