Saruman's death

[Azrakhor Akallabeth]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Floating atop the great waves of Belegaer, going from West Shore to East Shore... Should keep him pretty busy.

Re the Blue Wizards: When Saruman travelled with them to the East, I don't think he had evil intentions yet. It's much later that he became corrupted (I am hazy on this part of history. If I'm wrong, please correct me.). I highly doubt that he killed them.

Welcome to the Downs, Azrakhor Akallabeth! Where does it say that Curunir=Saruman made a Ring of Power? I don't recall reading any of this. Gandalf mentions a ring, but not one of power:



I always assumed that it was a symbol of authority, but didn't posses any "real power".

Now I suppose I'll have to look it up. I'll get back with that. I remember it distinctly because I recall musing about what level of power and ability he achieved with his own trinket. And thank you, Galadriel55!

[Bauglir]

Saruman wearing a ring has always been an interesting one I think. After all, Gandalf mentions on numerous occasions that Saruman did many things in mockery and imitation of Sauron, and it is also implied that he was a great study of ring lore and all-devices-Sauron. Could it be possible that Saruman attempted a few proto-types of his own?

On the original topic of Saruman and Sauron's demise, it seems pretty similar. I've always thought of Saruman as simply wandering Middle-earth afterwards in reflection, but this thread may convince me to change my mind yet!

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Bauglir

I've always thought of Saruman as simply wandering Middle-earth afterwards in reflection, but this thread may convince me to change my mind yet!

Ditto! And welcome to the Downs!

[Azrakhor Akallabeth]

In regards to Curinir's ring, the only indisputable reference is made by his own mouth, and that it was seen upon his hand...

Gandalf says later in the chapter:
"But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman; and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger."

Saruman says later in the chapter:
"For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!"

My assumption that it is at least an "attempt" at a Ring of Power comes from his very own nature. And while it is largely circumstantial, it can reasonably predict a likely course that he took...

1. He was a Maia of Aule, that troublesome Vala whose own aggressive thirst for Lore Knowledge led him to create the Dwarves-

Just like Gorthaur in the beginning, Curunir was a Maia of great power and knowledge from the people of Aule, and was almost certainly privvy in Valinor to the knowledge of the Noldor, such as it was in it's infancy. So he had, at least, some background in great Lorecraft, and almost undoubtedly watched the work of Feanor with great interest. Their collective weakness against the lure of great artifacts of power and the will to create them no doubt sprang from this allegience which was crafted through a kinship of spirit.

2. He searched out the crafts and secrets of the enemy in order to, at first, defeat him-

He was found to have possessed some of the great artifacts of Isildur's day when Orthanc was later thrown open. He undoubtedly knew the Ring was lost by Isildur in the Anduin. And in his pursuits over thousands of years, almost certainly rifled through the ruins of Barad-Dur, delved deeply into the knowledge of the Elves of Eregion, such as had been saved, on the pretext (honestly at first) of discovering a way to undo the ring or its maker.

His search into the Arts of the enemy are supposed to be the thing which, at the very least, sparked his desire to imitate some of those methods for his high purpose as leader of the White Council.

3. He was a Maia, in human form-

The greatness of his noble spirit was ensnared by the weakness of his mortal form, a constant danger to such beings. His true innate power, while limited by the Valar in this quest in order to spare themselves the problem of sending out another potential Dark Lord, was most certainly as great as any High Elven Lord.

And it was Elven Lords, most specifically Celebrimbor of Hollin, who created the greatest of the Elven Rings. But in the very least case he was surely a match in his limited capacity, even for Elrond or Glorfindel, who recognized the Wizards as Maiar spirits and constantly revered and deferred to them.


So while it is unlikely that he got himself enough information to forge a competitor to the One Ring, and more unlikely because he was unable to draw on his full power as had Gorthaur, he could certainly have forged a series of lesser rings, or even a Ring of Power on par with the Three Elven rings whose maker was a mere elf. It's purpose then would be to help him, first of all, find the One. Second, to rule his hoardes, and third to enhance his own limited strength to these ends.

It can be seen by the Dwarves whose own magic was small, or non-existent that certain materials had magical properties in and of themselves, and didn't require a great magic user to forge an Artifact of Power. So even in the enhancing of his own power, Curunir had available a host of useful information. But his ultimate goal was to supplant Gorthaur, now Sauron, and take his place. So the only thing stopping him from pouring his innate power and essence into a ring attempt would only be the lack of information on how to do so.

Therefore I find it reasonable to conceive of the idea that he probably got 'somewhere' in his effort, and based on the thread subject, likely spent himself to the verge of nothingness, rather than his fate being some judgement of Eru or the Valar, because in the Silmarillion, even Gorthaur the Cruel got the chance to repent and go back to Valinor to the ghastly and terrible sentence of "Community Service" like Melkor had at first. And Curunir of Valinor, while fallen and most certainly guilty of many crimes, still hadn't commited the kind of acts from which Gorthaur was given the opportunity to repent.

All things being even, it's hard to argue that the Valar would suddenly become more harsh with Curunir than they had ever been with Gorthaur, or even Melkor, whose crimes against Middle-Earth were abhorrent and horrible in the extreme. No, I believe Curunir of Valinor, or Saruman the Wise, got his fate by doing the dangerous self-jeopardizing things which Sauron did, and in the same way reaped the same result. And even if at first the Valar were innocent and ignorant of the ways of evil, and therefore a bit more hopeful of their repentance, and an argument made for their becoming justly less tolerant of evil, it's still very difficult to discover on all of his doings where Curunir warranted a random dissipation of his essence. Rather, he would have been taken to Mandos to serve a sentence that lasted until the last battle, at most, and neither did the Valar have the authority, even if they had the power, to dissipate a fellow Ainu in judgement of anything.

The way that his shadow looked Westward for pardon may have been a plea to the Valar to assist him or entreat Eru to assist him against this fate of endless nothingness, and sought for a restoration to his original Maia status.

Of course, this is only pure speculation on my part.

[Azrakhor Akallabeth]

Now, we see from Sauron's appearance among the Elves of Eregion as Annatar, that he came as a "Teacher" and a "Lord of Gifts" supplying secret knowledge by which the Elves were able to combine their own lore and create the Great Rings. Therefore it is an easy jump to assume that Curunir, being also from Aule's people, already had a great store of "once secret" knowledge of his own... enough to at least begin the trials of ring making. His only missing element should have been the discoveries of Celebrimbor and the Smith's of Hollin.

While much had perished in the Wars of the RIng, not all had been lost, as the point continues to prove itself. My own belief is that he attained enough knowledge from secret scrolls and the minds of the Elven ring-wearers to make a serious attempt at a Ring of Power. Because, like Sauron, the greater part of the knowledge to do this seems likely to have already been his.

[Galadriel55]

This brings up another interesting point: was Saruman's ring, if it had Power, under the dominion of the One?

Seems like the palantir was not the only thing he kept secret from the White Council...

New theory for Saruman's corruption: to find out how to best destroy the Ring, he wanted to find out how it wrked. To do that, he tried making one himself, sort-of succeeded, and -

...would be Nazgul#10 if he wasn't a maia, I guess...



And that's assuming that it was indeed a ring of power. The 21st.

[Azrakhor Akallabeth]

I agree that he couldn't have become a Nazgul because his spirit was not the weak thing as that of a mortal man, but was Maiar. But even Maiar have Hierarchies, Degrees of Power and Authority, one over the other, and it sounds possible that Curunirs ring could fall under the sway of the One.

But bear in mind again that Sauruman was an "Originator" of a ring in the same spiritual order as the other "originator" of the One Ring, being both separated by time in an non-allied endeavor in their ring attempts. Therefore, while, in the case of the Elven rings, Sauron never touched them and yet they fell under the power of the One anyway, this happened because as the originator of the basic lore, it was Saurons special influence and sorcery that made them subject to him.

Saurumans ring-making was an entirely independent attempt based loosely on his own "Ring Craft" knowledge and power, and on the the gleanings from the notes of the Elves of Eregion who made them, which left Saurons influence out of it completely. Saruman would certainly have thought of this before making a ring.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Only a few quick remarks to what I think about Saruman's ring - I believe it to be, indeed, an attempt (probably the best of his attempts) to create some Rings of his own. However, those rings won't be under the power of the One, as, like with Three, Sauron had no part in their making.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

And that's assuming that it was indeed a ring of power. The 21st.

Aside from what I have said above, not 21st either: there were many lesser things apart from the Three, Seven and Nine, according to what Gandalf (and everyone) says about the Smiths of Eregion, and I assume Saruman's would be more similar to those in power. Still, quite enough for Saruman already, in any case, a definite success: "Wow, I actually DID it!" A few hundred years more of research and who knows...? Anyway, despite the Ring being "lesser", even if it reached the power of the lesser Rings of Eregion, it was powerful enough in general terms:

Originally Posted by FotR, The Shadow of the Past, Gandalf to Frodo

The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles – yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals.