Saruman's death

[Ghazi]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

...So they both were sentenced to roam the Middle-Earth in the long ages...

This pretty much sums up how I have always interpreted the fate of both Saruman and Sauron. I have also assumed that neither would be able to affect their environment in anyway but I wonder if it would be possible for them to inhabit another body or dominate other spirits such as the nazgul, wights or houseless elves. I also wonder what would happen if they ever ran into one another.

Yes, I have too much time on my hands at the moment.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ghazi

This pretty much sums up how I have always interpreted the fate of both Saruman and Sauron. I have also assumed that neither would be able to affect their environment in anyway but I wonder if it would be possible for them to inhabit another body or dominate other spirits such as the nazgul, wights or houseless elves. I also wonder what would happen if they ever ran into one another.

Yes, I have too much time on my hands at the moment.

It's probably a matter of personal belief, but I actually believe (from what's been said in the books and also what I "feel right") that indeed as you say in the beginning, that they would not be able to affect their environment in any way at all. I think they could be "visible" to some over-sensitive people, let's say, if somebody was constantly troubled by nightmares, he could from time to time catch a glimpse of "real" Sauron who managed to get stuck around his house for some longer time, but that's about it. I don't believe that they would be capable even of any form of possession. Somebody could see a weak "echo" of them in their dreams or something, if they tried really hard to catch his attention and if the person was sensitive enough, but still it would be just weak and shaded pale vision, nothing more. Something like the way Legolas perceived the Dead Men of Dunharrow, "weak and fragile", merely "shadows of Men", with the difference that Saruman and Sauron would be even far less than the Dead Men of Dunharrow ever were. Wisp and smoke, nothing more.

And as for what would have happened if they ran into one another, I guess Saruman at least would not have any wish for that encounter, in the "best" case, they could "gnaw each other with words", but I believe neither would be able to do anything to the other anyway (they are really just wisp and smoke), and anyway I doubt either would relish in such an encounter, for fear of being mocked by the other now in their utterly powerless state, and the same thing would probably happen if they encountered a lost fea of a dead Elf or something. I think seeing a totally powerless Dark Lord would be quite satisfactory for his former victims. I immediately thought of the words chanted by the dead in Isaiah 14: "...Underworld is moved to meet thee at thy coming: it stirred up the dead for thee... All they shall speak and say unto thee: Art thou also become weak as we? Art thou become like us? ...And they shall look upon thee and wonder: Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms...?"

[Inziladun]

I'd agree that Sauron and Saruman would likely have no power any longer to affect the physical world, though I do like Legate's idea of a select few 'sensitives' being able to see them from time to time.
If they happened to encounter one another in spirit form, I wonder how they would converse, with no physical bodies. Some sort of thought transference? Even if they had originally possessed that power as Maia, it doesn't seem they would still have had it in their lowly state.

[Pitchwife]

Legate, now that I've mulled over your long earlier post for a while, I think you described the 'job contract' between the Valar and the Istari very well, especially the bit about the Valar cancelling Saruman's contract as he had already broken it himself. The only problem I have with your interpretation is this: if the contract said all along that the Istari could return to their Maiarin existence in case of death, would it still make sense to say that Gandalf really 'died' (I noticed Tolkien put 'died' in inverted commas, but still)? I mean, how would his death then be any different from what Sauron suffered at the end of the Second Age, or even when he was defeated in werewolf form by Huan (after which he instantly assumed another shape)? If we assume that the Istari were truly incarnate, as opposed to merely 'clothed', in human form, wouldn't that have consequences for their fate in case of death?
Looking at the matter from a slightly different angle - why would Eru's special permission be needed at all to send Gandalf back, unless he really died and went beyond the circles of the world? Couldn't the Valar just change his contract themselves, or give him a new one?

As for Saruman, anyway - we know from the horse's mouth that his disembodied spirit did not haunt Middle-earth. UT, The Istari:

Whereas Curunír was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back.

If he did not remain in Middle-earth, and was refused to return to Valinor, the options where he could have gone seem pretty limited - Eru or the Void.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

If we assume that the Istari were truly incarnate, as opposed to merely 'clothed', in human form, wouldn't that have consequences for their fate in case of death?.

I think the reason the Istari 'wore' physical bodies was so they would be able to actually experience life in Middle-earth from the true perspective of the Children that abode there. Presumably that would give them greater insight on the manner of which to approach the fight against Sauron. That fact alone wouldn't affect their life potential as angelic spirits, though. Gandalf and Saruman experienced only physical 'deaths'; Gandalf's spirit being allowed to return to complete his task, and Saruman's ultimately rejected. The quote you provided from UT about Saruman is significant, and that does support the idea that he was effectively banished from ME. I wouldn't think his sins grave enough to warrant sending him to the Void, though. Sauron himself could have gotten a second chance after the fall of Morgoth, if he'd really wanted one.
Sauron's loss of body at the hands of the Last Alliance (and after the Ring was destroyed) was due to a sudden loss of power, quite different from the Istari who 'died'.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Looking at the matter from a slightly different angle - why would Eru's special permission be needed at all to send Gandalf back, unless he really died and went beyond the circles of the world? Couldn't the Valar just change his contract themselves, or give him a new one?

The Valar themselves were only 'managers', so to speak. Though the idea to send the Istari and physically embody them had been theirs, it was apparently beyond their authority to approve, needing the 'Head' to do so. If the initial idea had to be given the go-ahead by Eru, I would think any changes to the plan would have to be approved by him as well.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Legate, now that I've mulled over your long earlier post for a while, I think you described the 'job contract' between the Valar and the Istari very well, especially the bit about the Valar cancelling Saruman's contract as he had already broken it himself. The only problem I have with your interpretation is this: if the contract said all along that the Istari could return to their Maiarin existence in case of death, would it still make sense to say that Gandalf really 'died' (I noticed Tolkien put 'died' in inverted commas, but still)? I mean, how would his death then be any different from what Sauron suffered at the end of the Second Age, or even when he was defeated in werewolf form by Huan (after which he instantly assumed another shape)? If we assume that the Istari were truly incarnate, as opposed to merely 'clothed', in human form, wouldn't that have consequences for their fate in case of death?
Looking at the matter from a slightly different angle - why would Eru's special permission be needed at all to send Gandalf back, unless he really died and went beyond the circles of the world? Couldn't the Valar just change his contract themselves, or give him a new one?

As for Saruman, anyway - we know from the horse's mouth that his disembodied spirit did not haunt Middle-earth. UT, The Istari:

If he did not remain in Middle-earth, and was refused to return to Valinor, the options where he could have gone seem pretty limited - Eru or the Void.

Ha, well done indeed with the research on the last quote. I guess that changes the matters a lot. In any case, my former speculation was indeed just a speculation, or a theory. The thing with Istari bodies is probably a more complicated one. I agree with Inziladun about the need of approval from Eru, since the Valar needed his approval for the Istari project (or at least "perhaps", as it is said in one of the drafts), that's the basis for all the thoughts of Gandalf's return being approved by Eru himself and not just by Valar. Okay, so the question would be: what would happen to a perfectly faithful and hard-labouring Gandalf who would happen to die along the way, if there was no intervention from Eru? I believe the gaze of Saruman's spirit into the West is the answer: it really does not seem that a dead Wizard would expect to go beyond the Circles of the World (but perhaps he just was not prepared for the alternative?), but that even a formless Maia, however diminished in power in Middle-Earth, would be once again accepted back in Valinor. Also, think of one more thing. The destruction of a Wizard's physical body does not put him into the same basket with Men, in the sense that they would go to where the Men do. This has several reasons. Firstly, Death for Men is a gift from Eru, and it would seem to me against all logic to actually give the Wizards a gift intended for totally different type of creatures and reserved for them alone. And secondly, whoever said that an incarnate Wizard would be any closer to Men than to Elves. The Wizards' forms were those of the Children of Ilúvatar, and that is, both Men and Elves. The fact that they had beards is merely a cosmetic thing (not to speak of that Círdan had a beard as well), and let us not forget that Men themselves considered the Wizards being Elvish (although for various reasons based on rather simple and surface perceptions). It is indeed told that they were walking among both Men and Elves who perceived them as ones "of them". In any case, in the matters of death the Maiar were still far closer to Elves than to Men (heading to the West, Mandos, etc., basically inside Arda, not somewhere out of it, like Men did), and it would be really really strange to have such a big change in the paradigm of the world by the Istari's incarnation. The Istari were still mere messengers, not really a big deal in the large scale, whereas the matter of Death of Men seems from all that is said in the books as one of the last things that could ever be tampered with (we had Beren, Lúthien and a few others whose fate was actually changed in some way).

But all right, in the light of the quote - "his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go" - it would seem that we have indeed the banishment to the Void here. Which would actually make sense. Though still a distinct possibility remains that we can leave this question open and that still there was somewhere else for Saruman's spirit to go to. But that would be a question of speculation again, I guess.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But all right, in the light of the quote - "his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go" - it would seem that we have indeed the banishment to the Void here. Which would actually make sense. Though still a distinct possibility remains that we can leave this question open and that still there was somewhere else for Saruman's spirit to go to. But that would be a question of speculation again, I guess.

Either the Void, or a protracted 'time-out' period with Eru would seem to be to be the only options. Compared to Melkor and Sauron, Saruman would seem a rather lightweight baddie. I'd question whether he earned a one-way ticket to the Void, were it not for those cross-breeding experiments. I really think that might have been what sealed his fate. The rest of his actions don't look to me any worse than what Sauron did in the First Age, and if Sauron could have mustered a little humility and remorse he probably would have gotten off with a few thousand years of 'community service.' then.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

If he did not remain in Middle-earth, and was refused to return to Valinor, the options where he could have gone seem pretty limited - Eru or the Void.

Floating atop the great waves of Belegaer, going from West Shore to East Shore... Should keep him pretty busy.

Re the Blue Wizards: When Saruman travelled with them to the East, I don't think he had evil intentions yet. It's much later that he became corrupted (I am hazy on this part of history. If I'm wrong, please correct me.). I highly doubt that he killed them.

Welcome to the Downs, Azrakhor Akallabeth! Where does it say that Curunir=Saruman made a Ring of Power? I don't recall reading any of this. Gandalf mentions a ring, but not one of power:

He [Saruman] wore a ring on his finger. ~FOTR The Council of Elrond

I always assumed that it was a symbol of authority, but didn't posses any "real power".

[Azrakhor Akallabeth]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Floating atop the great waves of Belegaer, going from West Shore to East Shore... Should keep him pretty busy.

Re the Blue Wizards: When Saruman travelled with them to the East, I don't think he had evil intentions yet. It's much later that he became corrupted (I am hazy on this part of history. If I'm wrong, please correct me.). I highly doubt that he killed them.

Welcome to the Downs, Azrakhor Akallabeth! Where does it say that Curunir=Saruman made a Ring of Power? I don't recall reading any of this. Gandalf mentions a ring, but not one of power:



I always assumed that it was a symbol of authority, but didn't posses any "real power".

Now I suppose I'll have to look it up. I'll get back with that. I remember it distinctly because I recall musing about what level of power and ability he achieved with his own trinket. And thank you, Galadriel55!

[Bauglir]

Saruman wearing a ring has always been an interesting one I think. After all, Gandalf mentions on numerous occasions that Saruman did many things in mockery and imitation of Sauron, and it is also implied that he was a great study of ring lore and all-devices-Sauron. Could it be possible that Saruman attempted a few proto-types of his own?

On the original topic of Saruman and Sauron's demise, it seems pretty similar. I've always thought of Saruman as simply wandering Middle-earth afterwards in reflection, but this thread may convince me to change my mind yet!