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#1 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 57
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Yes, I have too much time on my hands at the moment. |
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#2 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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![]() And as for what would have happened if they ran into one another, I guess Saruman at least would not have any wish for that encounter, in the "best" case, they could "gnaw each other with words", but I believe neither would be able to do anything to the other anyway (they are really just wisp and smoke), and anyway I doubt either would relish in such an encounter, for fear of being mocked by the other now in their utterly powerless state, and the same thing would probably happen if they encountered a lost fea of a dead Elf or something. I think seeing a totally powerless Dark Lord would be quite satisfactory for his former victims. I immediately thought of the words chanted by the dead in Isaiah 14: "...Underworld is moved to meet thee at thy coming: it stirred up the dead for thee... All they shall speak and say unto thee: Art thou also become weak as we? Art thou become like us? ...And they shall look upon thee and wonder: Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms...?"
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#3 |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,039
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I'd agree that Sauron and Saruman would likely have no power any longer to affect the physical world, though I do like Legate's idea of a select few 'sensitives' being able to see them from time to time.
If they happened to encounter one another in spirit form, I wonder how they would converse, with no physical bodies. Some sort of thought transference? Even if they had originally possessed that power as Maia, it doesn't seem they would still have had it in their lowly state.
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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#4 | |
Wight of the Old Forest
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 3,329
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Legate, now that I've mulled over your long earlier post for a while, I think you described the 'job contract' between the Valar and the Istari very well, especially the bit about the Valar cancelling Saruman's contract as he had already broken it himself. The only problem I have with your interpretation is this: if the contract said all along that the Istari could return to their Maiarin existence in case of death, would it still make sense to say that Gandalf really 'died' (I noticed Tolkien put 'died' in inverted commas, but still)? I mean, how would his death then be any different from what Sauron suffered at the end of the Second Age, or even when he was defeated in werewolf form by Huan (after which he instantly assumed another shape)? If we assume that the Istari were truly incarnate, as opposed to merely 'clothed', in human form, wouldn't that have consequences for their fate in case of death?
Looking at the matter from a slightly different angle - why would Eru's special permission be needed at all to send Gandalf back, unless he really died and went beyond the circles of the world? Couldn't the Valar just change his contract themselves, or give him a new one? As for Saruman, anyway - we know from the horse's mouth that his disembodied spirit did not haunt Middle-earth. UT, The Istari: Quote:
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Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI |
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#5 | ||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,039
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Sauron's loss of body at the hands of the Last Alliance (and after the Ring was destroyed) was due to a sudden loss of power, quite different from the Istari who 'died'. Quote:
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Music alone proves the existence of God. Last edited by Inziladun; 08-22-2009 at 03:47 PM. |
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#6 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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But all right, in the light of the quote - "his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go" - it would seem that we have indeed the banishment to the Void here. Which would actually make sense. Though still a distinct possibility remains that we can leave this question open and that still there was somewhere else for Saruman's spirit to go to. But that would be a question of speculation again, I guess.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#7 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,039
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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#8 | ||
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,512
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![]() Re the Blue Wizards: When Saruman travelled with them to the East, I don't think he had evil intentions yet. It's much later that he became corrupted (I am hazy on this part of history. If I'm wrong, please correct me.). I highly doubt that he killed them. Welcome to the Downs, Azrakhor Akallabeth! Where does it say that Curunir=Saruman made a Ring of Power? ![]() Quote:
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#9 | |
Animated Skeleton
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Oh My...
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#10 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3
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Saruman wearing a ring has always been an interesting one I think. After all, Gandalf mentions on numerous occasions that Saruman did many things in mockery and imitation of Sauron, and it is also implied that he was a great study of ring lore and all-devices-Sauron. Could it be possible that Saruman attempted a few proto-types of his own?
On the original topic of Saruman and Sauron's demise, it seems pretty similar. I've always thought of Saruman as simply wandering Middle-earth afterwards in reflection, but this thread may convince me to change my mind yet! |
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