Saruman's death

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But all right, in the light of the quote - "his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go" - it would seem that we have indeed the banishment to the Void here. Which would actually make sense. Though still a distinct possibility remains that we can leave this question open and that still there was somewhere else for Saruman's spirit to go to. But that would be a question of speculation again, I guess.

Either the Void, or a protracted 'time-out' period with Eru would seem to be to be the only options. Compared to Melkor and Sauron, Saruman would seem a rather lightweight baddie. I'd question whether he earned a one-way ticket to the Void, were it not for those cross-breeding experiments. I really think that might have been what sealed his fate. The rest of his actions don't look to me any worse than what Sauron did in the First Age, and if Sauron could have mustered a little humility and remorse he probably would have gotten off with a few thousand years of 'community service.' then.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Either the Void, or a protracted 'time-out' period with Eru would seem to be to be the only options. Compared to Melkor and Sauron, Saruman would seem a rather lightweight baddie. I'd question whether he earned a one-way ticket to the Void, were it not for those cross-breeding experiments. I really think that might have been what sealed his fate. The rest of his actions don't look to me any worse than what Sauron did in the First Age, and if Sauron could have mustered a little humility and remorse he probably would have gotten off with a few thousand years of 'community service.' then.

Well, acccording to the UT he also desecrated/destroyed Isildur's reamains, I dont know how bad an act that is reckoned in ME, but it proably doesnt count well for one.

In a slight side note if the fea of good wizards who are slain return to Valinor, does that mean the the fea of the Blue Wizards are also over there (assuming of course that they are actually dead) once again serving Yavanna in her court? Makes you wonder who met Gandalf and co when the boat finally landed in the West.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

In a slight side note if the fea of good wizards who are slain return to Valinor, does that mean the the fea of the Blue Wizards are also over there (assuming of course that they are actually dead) once again serving Yavanna in her court? Makes you wonder who met Gandalf and co when the boat finally landed in the West.

That all is a question and it depends also on what actually happened to the Blue Ones - though if Tolkien's fears became true and they failed as well, I figure they'd be locked up in Mandos or something. Though for some reason, I believe they still were somewhere out there in M-E when the Third Age has ended.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That all is a question and it depends also on what actually happened to the Blue Ones - though if Tolkien's fears became true and they failed as well, I figure they'd be locked up in Mandos or something. Though for some reason, I believe they still were somewhere out there in M-E when the Third Age has ended.

I can understand them being kept, or waiting in, the Halls of Mandos, but why on Middle Earth would he lock them up? Being slain is hardly a punishable offence. Icidentally if Tolkien's fears were correct, it would also be a major strike against Saruman, since Tolkein's thoughts seem to imply that if The Blue are dead it was at Saruman's hands, which would add killing fellow wizards to his rap sheet. Oh and I realize I mad one addional mistake if their fea had returned to Valinor they would have been serving Orome, not Yavanna (I got their summoner and Radagast's confused) But I also like imagining that they were still around somewhere maybe in the far south of Far Harad (far enough to actually be beyond Saurons control) or way up North among the Lossoth or both (hey with two of them there no guarantee they stayed together)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I can understand them being kept, or waiting in, the Halls of Mandos, but why on Middle Earth would he lock them up? Being slain is hardly a punishable offence. Icidentally if Tolkien's fears were correct, it would also be a major strike against Saruman, since Tolkein's thoughts seem to imply that if The Blue are dead it was at Saruman's hands, which would add killing fellow wizards to his rap sheet.

Nay, what I had in mind was what seemed to be Tolkien's most immediate fear, something he seemed to consider most likely of all possibilities, and that was not just being slain, nor by Saruman (that was really just a distinct possibility that was only hinted), but that they turned to evil themselves. THAT was why I said they would be locked up.

Originally Posted by UT, Istari, note #3

In a letter written in 1958 my father said that he knew nothing clearly about "the other two," since they were not concerned in the history oh the North-west of Middle-earth. "I think," he wrote, "they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Numenorean range: missionaries to enemy-occupied lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron."

[miriena]

Well, my personal opinion is also that indeed, the Western wind was Manwe forbidding Saruman's return. But perhaps he not only denied him the return, maybe he banished Saruman from the West of Middle Earth as well. It was now free of Darkness (on a large scale anyway, for the time being) and Saruman's spirit had no business left there. It would be a sad fate--but perhaps proper punishment--for a once-powerful being to exist somewhere as a shadow of its former self, passing endless days. Who knows, maybe no "high orders" ever came regarding what to do with Saruman, he was now a useless, deprecated tool and the only thing that was clear is that the way West was closed for him. But I don't think that those up high in the food chain considered him anywhere near the same level of vileness as, for example, Sauron. Breeding his warriors may have been the only "major" offense of his, but even so. He wasn't the first one to do something similar, on him lies the fault of a follower, not the inventor. My general impression of Saruman is that he was cast aside more as a dangerous (very dangerous...) nuisance rather than evil itself. In my opinion having him meekly exist somewhere nowhere in Middle Earth only retaining memories (if that) of his former self and power seems appropriate.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by miriena

My general impression of Saruman is that he was cast aside more as a dangerous (very dangerous...) nuisance rather than evil itself. In my opinion having him meekly exist somewhere nowhere in Middle Earth only retaining memories (if that) of his former self and power seems appropriate.

Perhaps, vile as his deeds in interspecies genetics were, he could still have found forgiveness were it not for his unrepentant attitude. But any chance to redeem himself he had rejected time after time. I think Gandalf pretty well said as much.

'But alas for Saruman! I fear nothing more can be made of him. He has withered altogether'.