Game Thread: WW LXXXVI - The Halls of Mandos

[Rikae]

Cold and lonely was the day for Beren Camlost (apart from the occasional heated argument with the Elves), and he longed for the company of his sweet Tinúviel. Yet she was gone, not to return for many an age. In his tormented dreams Beren pleaded to Mandos, the Lord of the Dead, bid him to let Lúthien stay with him just one more day, and it seemed to him as if the Vala was answering him:

"Thingol's daughter indeed shall return to the living and remain with you and your companions for one more day. But then you both shall return to my halls to dwell here until your spirits are healed."

"In the meantime, your love and her fellow dead wish to give to you, as a sign of their trust, to have your vote doubled in your quest to slay the evil that has beset you."

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As the day progressed, no clear bandwagon emerged... there was no one person, it seemed, who looked particularly evil, no one person on whom many could agree; Boromir, Wilwa, phantom and Nessa each received one vote, while nine elves pointed to Nogrod. Tension was high. The lynch hung by a thread.

"As time here..." Nogrod began, then coughed: "I mean, I am the seer. Aganzir is indeed Beren. phantom is a phabbler."

"No, I'm not Beren - I'm Lúthien!" laughed Aganzir, pulling off her false beard.

Nogrod contined to stare fixedly in the other direction, mumbling something about helping from the halls of Mandos.
"He's lying! Kill him!" shouted the others. Not nine, but ten arrows struck the bewildered looking Nogrod in the
back. The tenth was Aganzir's, and it could be argued that it was absolutely essential.

Nogrod fell to his knees, blood trickling from the corner of his mouth. "You will have to beg me to reveal my dreams!" he
cried.

"Actually, I was Beren all along" Aganzir added, pulling off his false chin and revealing a beard. "Not that it matters."

When the company turned back toward their campsite, they noticed that one of their number was missing without a trace.
Perhaps Blind Guardian had also gone to Mandos; time would only tell if her voice would be heard there.


The living:

Aganzir
Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Nerwen
Loslote
Wilwa
Legate
Lommy
Nessa
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Mithalwen
Anguirel
Fea

The dead:

Macalaure
Rikae
Mänwe
Shasta
Nogrod
Blind Guardian

Night 3 has begun. Nocturnal people, be active.

Note: Blind Guardian has been modfired; however, I have made the unilateral modly decision to re-assign her
role. One of you will be receiving your new role by PM toNight.

[Macalaure]

The night of sleep the Elves got after a day of stressful debate was wholesome, except for one of them. They woke up to see the green fields stained red and covered with the bits and pieces of one of their own. The Elves looked around to see any sign of which one of them met this gruesome fate, but could not find anything that even vaguely resembled Elvenkind anymore. At last they looked at each other: It was Fea who was missing.

------------------------

But all dread was swiftly forgotten as the most fair and graceful being of all Middle-earth walked amongst them once more. Shasta had returned from the dead, to bring back light and hope for all. They joy of Shasta and Aganzir was more than words can say. The Elves' hearts were lifted and ears opened to hear the tale of the dead that Shasta was going tell them.


The living:

Aganzir
Glirdan
A Little Green
elronds_daughter
Nerwen
Loslote
wilwa538
Legate of Amon Lanc
Thinlómien
Nessa Telrunya
satansaloser2005
the phantom
Boromir88
Mithalwen
Anguirel
Shastanis Althreduin


The dead:

Macalaure
Rikae
Mänwe
Nogrod
Blind Guardian
Feanor of the Peredhil


Nightly activites are to stop. The posting may begin again.

[the phantom]

Before I even begin to delve into the new day, first things first...

Shasta- what's it like down there? Anything funny or interesting to tell?

[Aganzir]

So darling, what news from Mandos?

It's awfully late so I'm not going to start posting now except to let you know I probably won't be around during the first half of the day.

I am interested in the reactions to Nog's reveal, especially after I claimed to be Lúthien, but that will have to wait.

Also, if we want to come up with a way to send information from Mandos to here, it would be a good idea to do it today.

[the phantom]

Since the dead can read this thread but can't post any responses...

Good riddance, Fea!

[Mithalwen]

I suppose it is safe to assume that BG was either a wolf or a gifted. Can't see it would be necesssary to change a cobbler in this game. Though if BG was a wolf I imagine that a cobbler has been upgraded. Anyway..back to sleep for a bit..

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Shasta had returned from the dead, to bring back light and hope for all.

Yay for the song! I thought about quoting it yesterday but decided to go with the Lay of Leithian.

By the way, we can probably assume that whatever BG might have been, she's now an ordo. I'm not sure if it's against the point of the game, but I think it would be fair to know if she was a wolf (because it would mean an innocent just turned into one).

Oh and I also wonder about Fea's death. I can think of one reason she might have been killed off the top of my head, but will have to go through her posts first.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Mith

I suppose it is safe to assume that BG was either a wolf or a gifted. Can't see it would be necesssary to change a cobbler in this game. Though if BG was a wolf I imagine that a cobbler has been upgraded. Anyway..back to sleep for a bit..

I can't say that I entirely agree with you on this. The player in me agrees with you and says that it wouldn't be necessary, but the Mod in me says that it would, just to keep the mechanics of the game running smoothly or to keep everything balanced. However, the Mod in me is also saying that the Moddess Goddess may have said that just to keep us guessing. So again anything is possible.

But seeing as BeiGei has not posted once, we have no way to assume anything and I believe it is a waste of time and effort to even try when we have Shasta back from the dead to help us clarify other things that need clarifying.

[the phantom]

Yeah, the Blind thing could prove to be a problem. If she was a Wolf, well, then that means it's possible the positive feelings we've gained towards someone up until this moment are now worthless. If she was Gifted, then perhaps someone that was playing not particularly carefully now has a big reason to stay alive, and perhaps behavior change will cause them to be spotted. The situation is definitely annoying... But what else could the Mods do?

Today was my day to do piles of schoolwork, and thus I haven't done a readthrough of yesterday, so don't expect a fresh spurt of analysis from me to lead off the day. I wish I could, but time, you know.

I'll do my best to check in again in a bit and again in the morning, but I probably won't be able to give much serious contribution until late in the afternoon.

[the phantom]

No posts at all? Well, this was a pointless check in.

Bed now. I'll try my best to be around in the second half of the day.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Well, from what I know....









Manwe was not a wolf. (I'm posting from my phone, sorry for lack of bold.)


Nogrod. Every indication is that of cobblery, even io to his dead vote. He was trying to convince me that he's the Seer, by saying that he just failed to notice Agan's trick and all the posts that came after referencing it (and there are quite a few, I made a list, including Nogrod's own posts interspersed in.) so I believe Nog to be a Nobbler.

More later. Oh, and the way Rikae worded what she said in response to me asking about BG makes it look like BG was a wolf, but it depends on whether Rikae regards the alignment of cobblers as innocent or wolfish. All she would say is that BG's role went to someone of the same alignment whose firmer role she thought less important.

[Nerwen]

My dearest! You've returned! Come to my– oh wait, I'm going to have to duel Agan, now, aren't I?

Originally Posted by Beranzir

I am interested in the reactions to Nog's reveal, especially after I claimed to be Lúthien, but that will have to wait.

I might have a look at that myself.

Originally Posted by Beranzir

Also, if we want to come up with a way to send information from Mandos to here, it would be a good idea to do it today.

You mean using the double-vote choice as a sort of code? It's hard to think of a way that would actually be workable– especially it seems there's now at least one cobbler in Mandos.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Lúthien

Oh, and the way Rikae worded what she said in response to me asking about BG makes it look like BG was a wolf, but it depends on whether Rikae regards the alignment of cobblers as innocent or wolfish. All she would say is that BG's role went to someone of the same alignment whose firmer role she thought less important.

Cobblers have the same alignment as wolves. If you were thinking along these lines, well, um, don't. I mean that was just Nobbler doing his job. All the same, I don't think what Rikae told you has to mean that, my heart– couldn't it equally refer to an ordo becoming a gifted?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I suppose it is safe to assume that BG was either a wolf or a gifted. Can't see it would be necesssary to change a cobbler in this game. Though if BG was a wolf I imagine that a cobbler has been upgraded. Anyway..back to sleep for a bit..

I would agree with that. Very often the Mods just scratch people if they don't have any important role. The problem is not that we don't know what BG was, the problem is now that we don't know who the person who has changed is. As it's been said, there are the two previous Days of the person's posting which now are somewhat less reliable when it comes to determining the person's role.

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Manwe was not a wolf. (I'm posting from my phone, sorry for lack of bold.)

Good, I knew I was right about him. I think that means he is innocent. (I really don't think he was a Cobbler.)

Originally Posted by Shasta

Nogrod. Every indication is that of cobblery, even io to his dead vote. He was trying to convince me that he's the Seer, by saying that he just failed to notice Agan's trick and all the posts that came after referencing it (and there are quite a few, I made a list, including Nogrod's own posts interspersed in.) so I believe Nog to be a Nobbler.

I'd assume the same, even given his behavior late yesterDay. But then I really think it was a waste to lynch him, what I was saying: now we are not going to learn for sure whether he was a Wolf or Cobbler, resp. innocent (Seer) or Cobbler, in case Cobblers count as just "non-Wolves" in Mandos. For that matter, I really think that also among those who urged for voting him, there might be Wolves/Cobblers (for the reason stated above - that's of course ruling out the unlikely possibility that if he indeed was the Seer, or the WWs thought he was, then of course the WWs would have also liked to vote him, even more). Sadly, I don't have much time toDay, but I will try to check at least the votes if I can. Okay, at least for now, the people who voted for Nog:
Before his Seer-revelation:
Greenie
Agan
Boro
Glirdan
After his Seer-revelation (now those are the ones I would definitely put under close examination, since from now on, if you voted against Nog, you basically assumed that he was a Cobbler - unless somebody proves me they thought otherwise - which, I believe, does not make much sense)
Fea
wilwa (whose vote, just from skimming through, looks more innocent to me in the sense that she was "tired" and all that)
Phantom (this one I don't like, as he was urging it really purposefully, whereas an innocent should at least ponder that it does not have much of a sense to lynch Cobbler, that's exactly what they are here for)
Lottie (who actually joined the process only a bit later, she originally did not seem very eager)
Ang (actually I am really curious about him - he initially wanted to support Nog, but only after Agan's "I am Beren/no Lúthien" thing he changed his mind, because, well, it was obvious)
Mith (the last nail)

From my other goals, I would like to take a look at those I have neglected this far as well, like Nerwen as I wanted earlier. elra's comment about Nog's revelation also looks a bit curious, need to check her too.

Originally Posted by Shasta

More later. Oh, and the way Rikae worded what she said in response to me asking about BG makes it look like BG was a wolf, but it depends on whether Rikae regards the alignment of cobblers as innocent or wolfish. All she would say is that BG's role went to someone of the same alignment whose firmer role she thought less important.

Well, that could of course be also that BG was a Gifted. Especially with the "same alignment" thing. But whatever...

Sadly, now I don't have time to look at the possible reasons for Fea's death nor anything else. I'm not sure how much time I am going to have toDay, and I might be able to appear only very late in the Day, or very briefly during the time... I'll try my best.

[Mithalwen]

Alignment is not the same as vote count. As a former mod myself who has faced these dilemmas in at least 2 games I know how hard it is to do and be fair -especially if you have debated pre-game about the fairest balance. Now in this game it is quite "ethical" to upgrade a cobbler to a wolf because they are same alignment and have been playing with the same aim albeit perhaps using different approaches. Nevertheless it doesn't require a volte face if an innocent were changed cursed style.

I am a bit wary of speculating the other way obviously... if BG were the hunter no real harm done, if Glorfindell well it is a pity we missed a couple of nights protection but there is no guarantee of a "save" if the true seer - since all evidence points to Nogrod having been a bit more than economical with the truth as well as OT &E. Well that is a bit of a bummer but we could be worse off since at least we know mostly about the dead and our revenants.

[Anguirel]

Fea's death makes the broadly pro-phantom side of yesterday's debate look even better, I think, right?

Interesting that no one tossed a hair when Mith brought up the likelihood of some trouble involving Blind Guardian yesterday (there was a practically audible collective response of "yeah, whatever") and now a lot of people are talking about nothing else. All because of Rikae's rather dramatic footnote? It seems to me preeetty exaggerated as a line of enquiry.

I suspected Fea a bit though I never had the heart to want her dead because she was one of those lovely reminders of my retirement home days. Now she's dead I'm pretty sure she wasn't a cobbler. Surely her shoemaking techniques would've been flashier

I must say, though, I can't really endorse the advice she gave before she died. I would have much rather settled this Nogrod issue than found out about Manwe. I do think we're right, but the possibility of not being so is so awful...and the Lovers don't, after all, prove the case either way. It would just be source of way greater reassurance to me (and I think many of us)

On the other hand, I do think the signs are in our decision's favour. Nogrod's extreme fit of pique as he went down even looks a bit like an attempt to replicate Shasta's earlier one, which won him such widespread sympathy...

[Mithalwen]

Mind you if any wolves were around endgame last night they weren't going to go for my damage limitation exercise if BG were their absent comrade.

[Anguirel]

I want a bit more gossip on (you guessed it) the Dead Thread. Don't be shy, fair Luthien; what's going on in there? Are there any weird twists you're allowed to tell us about? What's the line-up, who are the duellists and why? Is everyone sticking to their old story?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Legate

After his Seer-revelation (now those are the ones I would definitely put under close examination, since from now on, if you voted against Nog, you basically assumed that he was a Cobbler - unless somebody proves me they thought otherwise - which, I believe, does not make much sense)

Hmmn. It is my feeling that a cobbler posing as the Seer is still more dangerous on the Living than the Dead thread. So I'm not sure the people who voted him after that look as bad as you think. I mean, the way things were going at that time, the alternative candidate was phantom (also as a supposed cobbler.) Though, I guess it's interesting that everyone appeared to see it as one or the other. I mean– why?

I really do need to have a look at the votes yesterDay. I'm quite pressed for time, though.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I want a bit more gossip on (you guessed it) the Dead Thread. Don't be shy, fair Luthien; what's going on in there? Are there any weird twists you're allowed to tell us about? What's the line-up, who are the duellists and why? Is everyone sticking to their old story?

A bit more talking of any kind would be nice. I mean I know this is a day of rest but I am worried given that there seem to be a lot of quiet people - including some I remember as being noisier. Going ot check if stats back up my imaginings..

[Anguirel]

You're right Mith. Quite busy and exhausted myself, maybe that's a general problem. But I certainly went off for brunch expecting to come back to more action than this...

Boro certainly seems to spend a lot of time watching the Tudors, for example. I mean, I like a ripped bodice myself, but...this doesn't necessarily mean guilt, I suppose, just that the great complexity of this game brings on a certain sense of detachment. Fea, too, was generally not as vocal as you might've expected.

Whenever I've successfully caught wolves it's been to do with their actions and reactions towards each other. The focus so far has tended to be on individuals rather than dynamics and potential triumvirates. We need to up the pace, we really do, but I kind of want to put my head under the duvet with radio 3 playing gently in the background etc.

[Mithalwen]

You might as well dear, I doubt there will be much more going on for a bit.. the surviving Eastern European contingent are quiet.. small hours for Nerwen, don't know hwere everyone is but suspect stateside, so since it is too cold ot garden I will have a crack at a serious review of past days and see if I have anything significant when it islivelier. Or make marmalade. We could be in for another late one.. so a nap now might be a good tactical move.

Oh and it is quiet - I thought I had been quieter than usual and certainly I err towards many short posts than epic tomes but I have about 10% of the post count..

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Ang

Boro certainly seems to spend a lot of time watching the Tudors, for example. I mean, I like a ripped bodice myself, but...this doesn't necessarily mean guilt, I suppose, just that the great complexity of this game brings on a certain sense of detachment. Fea, too, was generally not as vocal as you might've expected.

Hey now that's only on Wednesdays.

I've reeled back my posting since we've last played. I found myself griping all the time about how many pages there were to read, but I was one of the biggest contributors to the page count. Hopefully, since your return and seeing my vocalness down, you see that my vigor and passion isn't gone? If it is then maybe a temporary hiatus would be in order after this game is up.

I was on last night to see Fea had been killed. Maybe I could have posted something, but I wanted to finish some important non-game related reading and by the time I was done it was passed midnight. All I would have said was something like...

Aww, have fun with death Fea. Don't argue with Nog too much, because if I ever die I don't want to have to read 8 bajillion pages and also try to keep up with the posting of two threads.

I didn't think that'd be much of a useful contribution, so decided it was bed time. For Fea's death, I can't say I'm really all that shocked. Usually she hangs around for a while because she can be a distraction, but with Agan most likely getting Glorfindel's protection, the wolves went for someone who wasn't getting suspected at all, and who may have been a major pain.

Although, I was not getting seer vibes from Fea at all, I mean she did tell phantom don't ask for her opinion, I don't know anymore than anyone else. I was getting the standard, I don't care what happens on Day 1, but I'm an innocent vibes from Fea. If Nog's a cobbler, I can't see the wolves seriously buying his seer reveal, and therefor I would think they would still be gunning for the seer each night.

By the end Nog was basically just launching off suspicions of anyone who was suspecting him and/or not believing his reveal. So I don't know why you'd say Fea's death makes phantom look better. If Nog's a wolf, than I think phantom is most likely innocent. However, if Nog was the cobbler, than to me, it doesn't say anything about phantom's alignment. It would help me out a lot to know Nog's role. I'm sure of one thing, he's not the seer, nor was he innocent.

[Boromir88]

Nothing else going on?

Ok, shower, food and hopefully that is enough motivation to be more productive.

Originally Posted by Me

By the end Nog was basically just launching off suspicions of anyone who was suspecting him and/or not believing his reveal. So I don't know why you'd say Fea's death makes phantom look better. If Nog's a wolf, than I think phantom is most likely innocent. However, if Nog was the cobbler, than to me, it doesn't say anything about phantom's alignment. It would help me out a lot to know Nog's role. I'm sure of one thing, he's not the seer, nor was he innocent.

As far as this, I should clear up that I'm in no way interested in voting for the phantom today or even if we did find out about Nog's role. That's outloud thinking that simply because Fea died and Nog looked evil, doesn't mean phantom looks better, or I'm not understanding how he looks better.

My main focus today will be those who seemed over-eager to believe Nog's reveal and suddenly try to get things turned around to not lynch him.

[elronds_daughter]

Originally Posted by Boro

As far as this, I should clear up that I'm in no way interested in voting for the phantom today or even if we did find out about Nog's role. That's outloud thinking that simply because Fea died and Nog looked evil, doesn't mean phantom looks better, or I'm not understanding how he looks better.

I agree with you on this. phantom still seems fishy, but not to the point of being wolfish. There are much better targets to be examined than him.

Reading over yesterDay...shall be back later to voice more opinions.

[Thinlómien]

Some interesting developments, it seems. I'm here and I've only skimmed through most of the stuff and I admit it's been quite a mess - one seer reveal and all - but I'll read and comment it all now so I'll be around.

One thing caught my eye though. Shasta who came back said Mänwë was not a wolf. How can you know that?

[Nerwen]

Pre-reveal votes:

Originally Posted by Lommy

++Wilwa

I'm aware this is not the most reasoned of all votes, but call it a gut-feeling. Read her post where she quotes Boro. It's just somehow smug, the tone, she gives the impression that she is slightly less confused than the rest of us, which she would be if she only entered the game after nice Nightly briefing by her pack. Also, the wolves have more reason to enjoy the confusion than us, because after all, their objective is just to slaughter while we really need to watch out for what we're shooting at.

Originally Posted by Greenie

++ Nog

Since I figured a Nessa vote would be pretty much a throwaway. A bad premise, but that's it.

Note: had been suspicious of Nogrod earlier, but more so of Nessa. Is change connected with this post of Boro's, where he threatens her with elevation to "Swarm of Killer Bees" if she votes Nessa? In this post, Boro is intent on pushing Nog, phantom and Glirdan as the only choices.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

++NOGROD

I have seen enough. Nog if you're innocent I apologise, but at the moment I can't see that as an option.

Originally Posted by Boro

Nog's now moved to threat alert Godzilla. I see nothing beneficial that can come from the insinuations living players are cheating. That's rather unsporty when there's no proof for it. We've all played long enough together, I would think that alone would make everyone trustworthy enough stick to the rules. It's no different than the fact I trust living players aren't discussing the game, while the game is going on with eachother (unless allowed by the rules).

++Nog

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Okay, I can't stand to wait any longer and will vote

++Nog

If anyone wants to see why, read post #303 for my reasoning. I really have to go.

Nogrod's Seer-reveal and reactions to it.

Originally Posted by Nessa

Aaand, Nog seems to be ruffling everybody feathers, and the whole situation makes me upset. This is more "aggressive" than I've ever seen him in my admittedly small number of games with him, but he doesn't seem to think that of himself. However, the distrust of the other players looks odd. Just plain odd.

Originally Posted by Sally

++Boro


I don't have time to consider Nog's revelation right now, but I suspect Boro a bit as it is and I think he'll make a decent "rival" candidate, rather than a possible throwaway on Lottie.

Originally Posted by Fea

Hm. Believe him and go with my Glirdy vote?

Or think he's a wolf, that any counter reveals would only help his case (and put the 'real' seer in danger), and that he's trying to get the Ranger to switch protections from the Lover to the false-seer so that both Lovers are gone for good?

Grrrr.

I don't know what to think.

Originally Posted by Boro

...and of course, with absolute no way to prove anything of what Nog claims.

*sigh* I'm really too grouchy to seriously think on this and don't look forward to the headache that's coming from it.

Agan and phantom are understandable choices for a Nog-seer, or any seer for that matter. And while I've also thought phantom was up to no good, I've continually felt worse about Nog after my first reaction.

Even with Shasta's death, I was telling myself not to buy "Nog is being set up argument" because Nog witnessed my wolf-pack to the exact same thing with Nessa-wolf in his game.

If you're the seer, Nog, you get the choice of what I have to eat. If a wolf or cobbler you be, to the death deserveth ye.

Originally Posted by Wilwa

I am inclined to believe him. This would be a rather crazy bold thing for a Wolf, or even a Cobbler to do, on only Day 2. And I can understand why he felt he had to reveal, what with the Lovers in the position they're in, and people seeming to want to vote for him. Now he'll be safe for toNight, and then he can dream of people as they die, and hopefully the Ranger lasts for a while and can provide us with a bunch of those dreams later on in the game (even if it's just dreams of dead players, that's still super useful, cause it'll be information that we can use to find connections between people).

So I believe him. And now I'm trying to figure out if we should bother killing Phantom? I'm inclined to not at the moment, he can't do much harm, so I would say we don't waste the lynch.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Well thank you, Nogrod. I suspected something like that would be coming. My job is at least a bit easier. Now I merely have to decide whether you are Cobbler or Wolf.

Originally Posted by Lottie

I'm rather inclined to believe Nog - I've seen him get...meaner before as a Gifted. I don't think he can say that Shasta played badly, though. We'll find out in Endgame why the wolves killed him, and until then, it doesn't do much good to say it was all Shasta's fault. I mean, if he was at least trying to determine which specific people would have noticed the hints, that'd be one thing, but as it is, I can absolutely see why he attracted votes like a magnet.

That being said, let's hope Nog dreams us up a wolf toNight.

Note: Lottie and phantom argue about this for several posts, Lottle defending Nogrod.

Originally Posted by Mith

Why don't we do the obvious thing ang vote Blind Guardian? Time is short they are apparently about to be modfired. We lose an opportunity to lyncha wolf but we buy a little more time?

Originally Posted by Nessa

I hate to say it, but I believe Nog. I don't think it would be particularly beneficial to false reveal as a seer at this point, and he seems worked up enough about the Lovers' playing that it strikes me as sincere.

So I hope I'm right..

++the phantom

Because it's more likely than not that one of the two is a wolf-cobbler.

Originally Posted by Legate

Long post– concludes Nogrod is either a Seer or Cobbler and either way should not be lynched

Originally Posted by Legate, on Nessa's vote

Hm, brilliant. Now if Nog is bad, this looked rather bad too. And, I mean, even if Nog is telling the truth, once again, it does not make much sense to lynch Cobbler at this point. So I don't see why immediately following and wishing to lynch phantom.

Originally Posted by Legate

++Nessa

I think I have said all as for what I think about whom people should vote or not... preferably not any possible Cobblers; otherwise, sufficient to say, seeing either of my general suspects go will be fine. But I have to really go to sleep now, so, vote well, folks... and really looking forward to toMorrow...

Reactions to Agan's trap:

Originally Posted by Agan

Ha!
No I'm not. I'm Lúthien.

Originally Posted by Agan

++Nog

I'm just going to push it through. He can yell at me post-game if he really is the seer, but I think his behavior up to and after his reveal screams sinister instead of seer. While I find it logical that a Seer-Nog would dream of Agan and the phantom, it doesn't mesh well with his earlier behavior and it's too easy to see those choices as, "I can say these and nobody has any power to deny it except for the true seer (hahaha!) or the phantom (who nobody believes anyway)!"

Note: Hadn't seen Agan's post at this point.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Seriously?! You switched the roles of you and Shasta purposefully for the sake of having that sort of trap up your sleeve later?!

If so, then I could totally kiss you right now!

Originally Posted by Fea

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Oh man, that makes me feel way better about the vote I just cast.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I've been away on a fairly riotous evening, but I'm back, I've read the thread, and I think I understand it. Good old Werewolf. Bad old sleep. (etc.)

Originally Posted by Elra

Dear me. I don't like any of this at all. Nog, the seer?!? What? Gah. He could very well be being truthsome, and tp etc. ganging up on him to distract. Or he could be trying to fool us all into going after tp, which people will undoubtedly be willing to do, considering phanty's verbosity. I simply don't know which faction is right. Both of them have been pinging my "uh-oh" radar. I may abstain today if this goes on much longer.

Note: curiously, neither Anguirel nor Elra seem to have noticed the most recent development.


Anguirel then corrects this oversight:

Originally Posted by Anguirel

no, there's no way Nogrod's telling the truth, is there. Logical bind. His sincerity relies on Aganzir being Beren. Aganzir would only lie about being Luthien were she a wolf or cobbler.

Brilliant. Artistic. Best stroke of play involving a lover I've ever seen, and I was a damn good one

Originally Posted by Wilwa

This is the bestest thing ever.

Originally Posted by Wilwa

Actually, I'm getting really tired, so I'm just gonna go for it.

++Nog

Originally Posted by phantom

++ Nogrod

Originally Posted by Lottie

Oh dear. Now my head is all spinny. Clever Agan.

++Nog

Because, even if he turns up Cobblerian rather than Wolfish, it's better than an innocent (and I'm sure you can gather which version of 'innocent' I meant).

Originally Posted by Anguirel

oh Nowgli, as the Americans pithily put it, shut up already

++NOGROD

Originally Posted by Mith

Well lets hope he is a wolf because (and in the light of events my idea wasn't such a good one as I thought at the time) we are also losing BG for good or ill most like.

++Nogrod

Note: throughout this, Nogrod argued back at great length, without even once mentioning the "trap"– even though by then this was practically the only thing anyone else was talking about. It rely defies belief that Seer-Nog could have just somehow not noticed. (Just in case anyone was still doubtful.)

Other than that– well, I'm not sure how much use this has been (it certainly took long enough). While I think there should have been reason to doubt Nog's reveal, the fact is that people do tend to trust a "Seer", so I can't really say people like Wilwa and Lottie look bad just for that– although they were certainly at best uncritical. It's also true that Lottie really did go out of her way to defend him. Nessa's vote looks the most questionable to me– it has that same air of apologising for itself as her Day One vote; also her earlier post looked an attempt to downplay the suspicicion against him (and indeed, re-direct it). Other than that, Boro and Greenie's interaction early in the Day more be significant, though I'm not sure what it adds up to.

EDIT:X'd with Lommy and Elra.

[Glirdan]

Well, I thought I was going to have another two pages to read through and get caught up on.

Originally Posted by Ang

Interesting that no one tossed a hair when Mith brought up the likelihood of some trouble involving Blind Guardian yesterday (there was a practically audible collective response of "yeah, whatever") and now a lot of people are talking about nothing else. All because of Rikae's rather dramatic footnote? It seems to me preeetty exaggerated as a line of enquiry.

I'm glad I am not the only one who sees it this way, and I am quite inclined to take a close look at those who keep bringing it up. It's a much too easy way for a Wolf and/or Cobbler to distract us from the things that are a little higher on the priority list, like any news that Shasta brings to us from the Dead.

As I was getting caught up, this caught my eye:

Originally Posted by Lommy

One thing caught my eye though. Shasta who came back said Mänwë was not a wolf. How can you know that?

Ummmm, what??? Are you forgetting the rules of the game?? Or are you purposely trying to make us question Manwe again for no reason whatsoever?

EDIT: Xed with Nerwen

[Mithalwen]

Blimey you have been positively chatty while I was washing up ..perhaps I should try that more often :S preferably without knocking half a bottle of disinfectant over myself.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

My dearest! You've returned! Come to my– oh wait, I'm going to have to duel Agan, now, aren't I?

Oh, I'm sure that isn't necessary. It's more fun with three.

You mean using the double-vote choice as a sort of code? It's hard to think of a way that would actually be workable– especially it seems there's now at least one cobbler in Mandos.

Yeah. What I had in mind was something along the lines of "if the first living person on the player list gets her vote doubled, the person we lynched the previous day was a wolf," plus whatever modifications we can come up with. There are problems though - at least one cobbler (although if Nog still wants to keep playing the seer, he had better comply to what we agree here ), and the chance that the lynch gets messed up.

Originally Posted by Legate

now we are not going to learn for sure whether he was a Wolf or Cobbler, resp. innocent (Seer) or Cobbler --- For that matter, I really think that also among those who urged for voting him, there might be Wolves/Cobblers

He wasn't the seer. He was either a cobbler or a wolf, and I'm inclined to say cobbler because Wolfgrod usually seems smoother.
If he had been the seer with self-preservation in mind, he wouldn't have failed to see my fake reveal - or even if he had, not after all the comments it got. He would have said "But I was told you're Beren!" He pretended to overlook it because there was no way he could've explained it. He was not the seer. (See also phantom's post where he explained Nog was only a well-prepared cobbler; the only coded hint he left was "I am the seer" which is far less useful than leaving a coded hint about my & phantom's roles.)
I agree the baddies might have been voting for him though, especially if one of their own was suspected. But I don't think it's bad we lynched Nog. If we want to achieve anything, we have to kill the baddies, all of them not just the wolves. I don't like how Legate keeps insisting the cobblers are of secondary importance.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Now she's dead I'm pretty sure she wasn't a cobbler. Surely her shoemaking techniques would've been flashier

I agree. Of course I can't be sure, but when I played with Febbler before, she felt very wrong to me which wasn't the case this time around. As in, I disagreed with everything she said.
However, there's still a chance she was a wolf... I wonder if we'll be forced to check her out in Mandos.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Shasta who came back said Mänwë was not a wolf. How can you know that?

Because they voted him last night. By the way Shasta why did you end up choosing him and not Nog (not that I mind, I'm just curious about how it happened) and who voted for whom?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Some interesting developments, it seems. I'm here and I've only skimmed through most of the stuff and I admit it's been quite a mess - one seer reveal and all - but I'll read and comment it all now so I'll be around.

One thing caught my eye though. Shasta who came back said Mänwë was not a wolf. How can you know that?

I presume they voted to check his role.

Anyway, my internet has been playing up badly again, and I'm not yet ready to visit the Halls via modfire, so–

++Nessa

See my previous post for reasons. It is rather thin, but I really can't come up with any strong lead to a wolf. (This isn't surprising considering how much the Nogrod show dominated yesterDay.) It's late at night here, though– maybe someone more alert will do better.

EDIT:X'd since my last post.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Agan

Because they voted him last night. By the way Shasta why did you end up choosing him and not Nog (not that I mind, I'm just curious about how it happened) and who voted for whom?

Oh yes– did Nog somehow stop them checking his role? You know what that would imply.

[Thinlómien]

Commenting while reading...

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Which is another thing– there's been a surprising amount of what looks like signalling. And yet, in this game, why bother?

Well I think it'd always be usufel for the evil side to know each other. After all, if they manage to identify each other, they can join forces. Which makes this:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Actually– even though there's not much need for a cobbler to hint in this game– that post looks a lot like he's doing just that. "Bingo! Nice work, my wolfish mistress!"

a fair point and makes Boro go quite high on my list of possible cobblers. (Alongside with Phantom, Glirdan, Lottie and several others. I wish I had as many wolf suspects.)

Mmm, people seem to mean that Boro being a cobbler hinting at me means I'm a wolf. Wrong. It only means he thought I'm a wolf, and if you suspect me based on that, you suspect me of being a wolf just because he does. Pretty fishy logic (or high trust in Boro's skills of observance), I'd say.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So speaking about an "ordo" means an ordinary innocent aka. having no role.
Speaking of an "innocent" means a non-wolf.

NO!!! (Okay I know I'm arguing with a dead person but this is something I feel rather passionately about.) I agree "innocent" doesn't equal "ordo" like some people seem to think, but "innocent" doesn't include cobbler who's not innocent because they're not on the innocent side!!!

Originally Posted by Fea

Edit: crossed with Glirdy... who seems to have spatula'ed himself from one side of the pan to the other. Which, in my brain, sends him from pan to fire... Ie: he didn't really help his cause.

Totally cracked up at this.

Originally Posted by Lottie

TP's being a cobbler makes Lommy look better

Why?

I'm rather worried I have no more to comment. I'm somehow feeling a bit detached from everything, and I think it must have to do with the fact that we don't know the roles of the dead. I think Nogrod was most likelily a cobbler, but if he was the seer that really sucks. However, his role doesn't matter to me that much, I think tp seems rathe cobblerish in any case.

And Fea's death... let's not make the same mistake and leave the evidence of her being picked unanalysed.


xed with all

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Agan

However, there's still a chance she was a wolf... I wonder if we'll be forced to check her out in Mandos.

Oh yes, she so badly wanted to do that! I wonder if Rikae would allow that... anyway if Fea makes a seer reveal on the dead thread, we all know better than not to trust it.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Oh yes– did Nog somehow stop them checking his role? You know what that would imply.

Does not compute. What does that imply? But I get the point about voting to check people's alignments, I just didn't realise it had started already.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

And Fea's death... let's not make the same mistake and leave the evidence of her being picked unanalysed.

Guess what I'm doing at the moment?

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

anyway if Fea makes a seer reveal on the dead thread, we all know better than not to trust it.

I wouldn't be that quick to disregard the possibility of her being the seer.

Does not compute. What does that imply?

That he was worried about them finding out his alignment - which would point at his being a wolf. Of course the most sensible thing a basically known cobbler can do in Mandos is to be as chaotic as possible, so I don't know.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Oh yes, she so badly wanted to do that! I wonder if Rikae would allow that... anyway if Fea makes a seer reveal on the dead thread, we all know better than not to trust it.

Does not compute. What does that imply? But I get the point about voting to check people's alignments, I just didn't realise it had started already.

Three are dead and It was clear from Shasta's post. There aren't very many posts today and surely his are the ones were are all interested in. Rather suprised that you aren't.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Why?

Because you were one of his top suspects. Of course, even without that element, I'm all confused again, because you've seemed a lot more innocent today than you did the Days before.

I thought I was going to have a ton of time to post toDay, but as it turns out, I'll be able to get online just before DL and a little bit throughout the Day.

I'm pretty sure the wolves didn't think Fea was the Seer. There's really nothing to support that. She also doesn't seem like a no-trail kill, mostly because there are others who would have left less of a trail, although she'd be more of a no-trail than a Seer kill. Maybe they thought she was too dangerous? But in that case, she's just being dangerous in the Dead Thread instead, which, while better for the wolves, isn't, I think, enough of a reason to spend the Night-kill on a person.

[Aganzir]

DAY 1:
She agreed with Nog that the innocents shouldn't do false reveals because it's harmful in a game where the roles aren't revealed.
Brought up the possibility of the wolves killing one of them who'd then proceed to play the seer in Mandos, saying we shouldn't base a plan on somebody claiming to be the seer because we have no way of knowing if she's telling the truth.
Had formed a (positive-ish) opinion on Shasta, Nog, me, Legate, Lommy, phantom, Boro, Mith, and Angu (this is what I'm going to call him from now on because it doesn't sound so much like Agan, plus it reminds me of Pingu); and said she'd vote for someone she hadn't an opinion of yet but who would be active in Mandos. She ended up choosing Nerwen.

DAY 2:
She suggests the wolves thought Shasta was the seer because of his pronounced opinion on Nog, but his death says more about the wolves than about Nog. She adds she didn't think he was the seer, though.
Phantom's vote looks good (avoiding a double-lynch), Mith's bad.
She says she's most likely voting for Nog because she doesn't trust him. She's also suspicious of Glirdy.
After Nog's reveal, Fea was undecided about whether to believe him. Her post could have been written by me - I was tempted to believe him but had my doubts because I had been so suspicious of him, and in the end I had to distance myself from it and try to consider his behaviour objectively. Three people voted for someone else than Nog after his reveal, but Fea decided to go and vote for him, never really buying his claim.
She suggested the phantom vote for Nog but said she doesn't know more than anyone else.

Nothing she says about people suggests she was the seer, but her day 2 posting does look seerish - Shasta probably wasn't the seer, her sudden suspicion (and then wavering) on Nog, etc. Regardless of whether she was the seer or not, it's possible the wolves thought so - or wanted us to think they thought so. I'm not totally confident of Fea's innocence after her "hey fellows let's kill me" thingy, but on the other hand I think WolFea would just have done it without giving us a warning.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Loslote

I'm pretty sure the wolves didn't think Fea was the Seer. There's really nothing to support that.

Oh, not even her seeming certainty that Shasta wasn't the seer or her reluctance to believe Nog?

I am feeling bad about Boro so I'm now planning to reread his posts quickly and see if I find anything worth commenting on...

[A Little Green]

Back at last.

Originally Posted by Agan

I like the fact that Greenie voted for Nog but not that she did it after Boro threatened to suspect her more if she had voted Nessa.

My vote for Nog had little to do with Boro's threat, since my reasons for wanting to vote Nessa were valid enough whatever he thought about them. Ending up voting for Nog was exactly as I put it: he was acting more strangely by the minute, while I figured a Nessa-vote would be pretty much a throwaway in any case. And speaking of Nessa, I'm not feeling any better about her toDay.

Originally Posted by Nessa

I also see why Greenie would suspect me, but I'm just being honest. After all, ordos have nothing to lose from honesty-we just have to find some wolves.

Agreed - but an admitted throwaway vote is hardly helpful in finding wolves.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Hmmn. It is my feeling that a cobbler posing as the Seer is still more dangerous on the Living than the Dead thread. So I'm not sure the people who voted him after that look as bad as you think. I mean, the way things were going at that time, the alternative candidate was phantom (also as a supposed cobbler.) Though, I guess it's interesting that everyone appeared to see it as one or the other. I mean– why?

That is actually a very good point. I think a part of it was that - quite understandably - all the conversation revolved around those two, and people quite simply didn't come to think about anything else, especially at the very end of the Day with time running out. (Obviously, that was what whichever of the two is a baddie - Nog, basically - must have been aiming at.)

Argh. Still, I'm having doubts about Nog. His frustration with the village didn't seem faked. Basically he just has to be a better actor than I thought because looking at the actual content of his posts there's little chance of him actually being the Seer.


EDIT: x-ed with Lottie and two Agans

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Greenie

And speaking of Nessa, I'm not feeling any better about her toDay.

I've been having the same feeling about her for awhile but just didn't know what to make of it. The same applies for Elron and Wilwa. Maybe it's because all three are quiet and have been kind of slipping under my radar that I'm very leery of them. I think I'm going to take a closer look at all three of them.