Hin Hurin - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Galadriel55 · 12-26-2010, 07:47 PM

I love all 3 Hini Hurin. And Hurin, and Morwen. Even though I'm neither's namesake. I still love them, and I love COH.
I think Morgoth was very clever when he cursed Hurin's kin. *You have to admit that, even though he's evil and hated by most characters*. Instead of torturing the faily to death with physical means, he causes them inner misery and grief. Also, instead of simply destroying all the strength that they posess, he uses it to help his own means. Or at least he meant to. Didn't really work out fully, but still worked. Remember how Morgoth was afraid that his curse will loose it's power, because Turin was so powerful? But no, all that good power was turned into something evil without Turin realizing what's aboard....

Puddleglum · 12-27-2010, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Or at least he meant to. Didn't really work out fully, but still worked. (

When you think of Morgoth, think of one motivated and filled more and more by simple hate. Hate, especially, of anything and anyone that he cannot control and rule. That hate, while it hurt many others (including the family of Hurin) also had terrible impact on Morgoth himself. As he spent himself in hate, he lost the ability to alter his form (like the other Valar), became bound more and more to his own subterranean throne (until captured and bound by the host of the West - and expelled from the world), and raised up his own eventual destruction.

Tolkien wrote an interesting prophecy (of Mandos) dealing with the end of the world in which he notes that, in the final battle on the plains of Valinor, Turin will come from the Halls of Mandos and deal to Morgoth his final death and destruction.

That last is especially interesting since Turin is an Atani (man) and so it is significant that he is able to remain in the Halls of Mandos and refuse to leave the world - not just for a short time like Beren, but for the whole remaining history of Arda!! I've always felt that his determination and unwavering resolve to so remain were products of his treatment at the hands of Morgoth. Where his father eventually despaired of life and departed, Turin became so fixed in his determination to BE the "Master of Doom" that he was unwilling to depart. In the end, he became Illuvatar's tool in the final destruction of Morgoth.

Galadriel55 · 12-27-2010, 05:42 PM

And there's no one more fit that Turin to carry out the prophecy! I think that out of all the thousands of Elves, Men, and Dwarves whose lives Morgoth ruined, Turin's was by far the worst and most bitter (Unless it be Hurin, but as Puddleglum rightly said, Hurin did not want to stay any longer in the world). Turin wanted to strike the final blow to get revenge on Morgoth. He was trying to do that all his life, but because of the curse all his efforts somehow turned on himself. Imagine it like this: Morgoth punches Turin; Turin wants to punch him back, but ends up punching himself. When he realises that he hit his own face, he punches again, and again hurts himself... This way Morgoth can leave the family to their own devices, and they'll be destroyed by, basically, themselves.
To answer Urwen's question as to why Morgoth "cursed them to death", it's probably because he was enraged about Hurin's mockery. He didn't kill him, didn't make him work, but made him suffer inside. Does he really care about 3 innocent individuals? He's MORGOTH, he doesn't give a hoot in hell about one little family. He destroyed thousands of families, but Hurin's got special treatment, since Hurin opposed Morgoth more than the others. And he didn't curse them to DEATH - that would be stupid of him. His curse caused their death, but it had better results when they were alive, preferably doing something big scale.

Galin · 12-27-2010, 09:36 PM

The Second Prophecy of Mandos was abandoned however.

The section concerning Turin returning at the end of days was re-characterized by JRRT as a mannish tradition (not a prophecy of Mandos)... although there is also the matter of Andreth's prophecy, which has Turin returning at the end of the Elder Days (not the Great End), with his seeming last act within the Circles of the World being the slaying of Ancalagon.

Neither idea was incorporated into the 1977 Silmarillion in any case, but see the end of the 1977 Silmarillion for what is says regarding Mandos and healing (taken from the unedited Valaquenta if memory serves).

12-26-2010, 07:47 PM	#1
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,493	I love all 3 Hini Hurin. And Hurin, and Morwen. Even though I'm neither's namesake. I still love them, and I love COH. I think Morgoth was very clever when he cursed Hurin's kin. You have to admit that, even though he's evil and hated by most characters. Instead of torturing the faily to death with physical means, he causes them inner misery and grief. Also, instead of simply destroying all the strength that they posess, he uses it to help his own means. Or at least he meant to. Didn't really work out fully, but still worked. Remember how Morgoth was afraid that his curse will loose it's power, because Turin was so powerful? But no, all that good power was turned into something evil without Turin realizing what's aboard.... __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

12-27-2010, 05:42 PM	#3
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,493	And there's no one more fit that Turin to carry out the prophecy! I think that out of all the thousands of Elves, Men, and Dwarves whose lives Morgoth ruined, Turin's was by far the worst and most bitter (Unless it be Hurin, but as Puddleglum rightly said, Hurin did not want to stay any longer in the world). Turin wanted to strike the final blow to get revenge on Morgoth. He was trying to do that all his life, but because of the curse all his efforts somehow turned on himself. Imagine it like this: Morgoth punches Turin; Turin wants to punch him back, but ends up punching himself. When he realises that he hit his own face, he punches again, and again hurts himself... This way Morgoth can leave the family to their own devices, and they'll be destroyed by, basically, themselves. To answer Urwen's question as to why Morgoth "cursed them to death", it's probably because he was enraged about Hurin's mockery. He didn't kill him, didn't make him work, but made him suffer inside. Does he really care about 3 innocent individuals? He's MORGOTH, he doesn't give a hoot in hell about one little family. He destroyed thousands of families, but Hurin's got special treatment, since Hurin opposed Morgoth more than the others. And he didn't curse them to DEATH - that would be stupid of him. His curse caused their death, but it had better results when they were alive, preferably doing something big scale. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

12-27-2010, 09:36 PM	#4
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	The Second Prophecy of Mandos was abandoned however. The section concerning Turin returning at the end of days was re-characterized by JRRT as a mannish tradition (not a prophecy of Mandos)... although there is also the matter of Andreth's prophecy, which has Turin returning at the end of the Elder Days (not the Great End), with his seeming last act within the Circles of the World being the slaying of Ancalagon. Neither idea was incorporated into the 1977 Silmarillion in any case, but see the end of the 1977 Silmarillion for what is says regarding Mandos and healing (taken from the unedited Valaquenta if memory serves).