Istari and their staves

[Bêthberry]

Given the general attitude towards power (and authority) which LotR explores, I'm constantly bemused at how often questions of power come up in Middle-earth discussions. Must be some kind of magical after-effect of all that gaming.

[radagastly]

The wizards have the bodies of old men; the staffs are to help them walk, and to lean on.

They're certainly an appropriate accessory to the "costume" of old men in which they were clothed. I get the impression from the three wizards that we actually meet (Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast) that none of them actually were infirm enough genuinely to need them, however.

They were certainly a badge of office, though a rather impractical one, I think. How annoying it must be to have to drag around a big stick your whole life, rather than just pinning a tin star to your wizard robe and forgetting about it. They had to be carried, grasped in the hand, generally paid attention. That was their main purpose, I think. To focus the wizards attention. The staffs came from Aman, and are therefore a reminder of where the wizards came from, and why they are in Middle Earth, what their mission is supposesd to be. As such, they would naturally help the wizard to focus their mind on the innate power each of them posesses. I don't think the staffs were imbued with any "magical" properties. They were special for their artifact value. For example, a couple of the pearls in Queen Elizabeth's crown are known to have been worn by Elizabeth the first. Other parts of her state robes have each their own story. Do you wonder how she feels, on state occasions, garbed in all that history? I think these staffs had a similar significance to the wizards.

[Galadriel55]

So what you're saying is that the staves maintain the connection of istari to Valinor, which is closer than the other Valinor-ME connections?

[radagastly]

So what you're saying is that the staves maintain the connection of istari to Valinor, which is closer than the other Valinor-ME connections?

I'm not trying to imply a magical connection of any kind. It's purely psychological, I think, a persistent reminder of their mission, their obligations, their power. Otherwise, they might as well wear a tin star that requires no fuss, carries no weight in their hand.

As for other Valinor-ME connections . . . ? I'm not sure specifically to what you are referring so I don't think I can answer without more detail.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by radagastly

They're certainly an appropriate accessory to the "costume" of old men in which they were clothed. I get the impression from the three wizards that we actually meet (Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast) that none of them actually were infirm enough genuinely to need them, however.

Indeed not, and I seem to recall Tolkien explicitely saying (in some place that eludes my researching patience right now) that they appeared 'old but hale', or something very much like that. Still, if you make a habit of journeying long distances on foot (like all the Istari seem to have done in their early years, though only Gandalf kept it up later, as far as we're told), a staff is an invaluable prop, even if you're reasonably fit.

I like Ghanberryghan's idea of the staves as badges of office very much, and this, too:

Originally Posted by radagastly

The staffs came from Aman, and are therefore a reminder of where the wizards came from, and why they are in Middle Earth, what their mission is supposed to be. As such, they would naturally help the wizard to focus their mind on the innate power each of them posesses

...and thus facilitate their use of that power. If I may throw another analogy into the discussion, maybe the staves were also like musical instruments - e.g. take the guitar away from somebody like Jimi Hendrix or Frank Zappa, and they can't play certain kinds of chords and solos without it, but they've still got their musical talent and can still sing or perhaps make do with a banjo or ukulele, or maybe they're even skilled at another instrument like the piano as well, only they can't express themselves in the way that comes most naturally to them.
Or maybe, now I think of it, it was exactly the other way round, and the staves were for those things that weren't personal to the respective wizard. For every one of them, there was some special area of work they were best in - for Gandalf, I'd say it was inspiring others with courage and wisdom; for Saruman, all kinds of 'technological' lore and skill (in which I'd include his manipulations of others' minds through the use of his Voice); for Radagast, communication with animals; and for the Blue Duo, we don't know. These things, I think, were unique and innate to each of them and not connected with the staves at all; whereas most of the things we see Gandalf do with his staff (like his fireworks against the wargs under Caradhras, or the breaking of the bridge) were of a more tactical or 'energetic' nature, drawing on the elemental power he shared with all other Ainur, and in the use of which the Istari were restricted by their orders. (Maybe they were even given the staves, among other reasons, as part of their camouflage, so that in situations when they were forced to use this kind of power before witnesses it would be attributed to the tool rather than the person?) [/wild brainstorming]

All in all, I think the staves were both, badges and instruments, with authority being a crucial point.
Nice thread, Ghanberryghan - not the first on wizards' staves, but provoked some interesting thoughts. Welcome to the Downs!


PS. -

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Given the general attitude towards power (and authority) which LotR explores, I'm constantly bemused at how often questions of power come up in Middle-earth discussions. Must be some kind of magical after-effect of all that gaming.

This, too. That's why I love all those "Who was more powerful, Bill the Pony or Fatty Lumpkin" threads so much.

[Ghanberryghan]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

...and thus facilitate their use of that power. If I may throw another analogy into the discussion, maybe the staves were also like musical instruments - e.g. take the guitar away from somebody like Jimi Hendrix or Frank Zappa, and they can't play certain kinds of chords and solos without it, but they've still got their musical talent and can still sing or perhaps make do with a banjo or ukulele, or maybe they're even skilled at another instrument like the piano as well, only they can't express themselves in the way that comes most naturally to them.
Or maybe, now I think of it, it was exactly the other way round, and the staves were for those things that weren't personal to the respective wizard. For every one of them, there was some special area of work they were best in - for Gandalf, I'd say it was inspiring others with courage and wisdom; for Saruman, all kinds of 'technological' lore and skill (in which I'd include his manipulations of others' minds through the use of his Voice); for Radagast, communication with animals; and for the Blue Duo, we don't know. These things, I think, were unique and innate to each of them and not connected with the staves at all; whereas most of the things we see Gandalf do with his staff (like his fireworks against the wargs under Caradhras, or the breaking of the bridge) were of a more tactical or 'energetic' nature, drawing on the elemental power he shared with all other Ainur, and in the use of which the Istari were restricted by their orders. (Maybe they were even given the staves, among other reasons, as part of their camouflage, so that in situations when they were forced to use this kind of power before witnesses it would be attributed to the tool rather than the person?) [/wild brainstorming]

All in all, I think the staves were both, badges and instruments, with authority being a crucial point.
Nice thread, Ghanberryghan - not the first on wizards' staves, but provoked some interesting thoughts. Welcome to the Downs!


PS. -

This, too. That's why I love all those "Who was more powerful, Bill the Pony or Fatty Lumpkin" threads so much.

Oh I like that idea with the instruments! It makes a lot of sense. I always end up thinking not only of Gandalf's fight with the Balrog, but also Saruman foretelling Frodo's misfortune shortly before his death, and how he seems just as powerless in his tower with his staff than he is without it.
I actually got this idea with reading MANY other threads on wizard's and their staves, and they all come to different conclusions. The Istari were of the same race as Sauron himself, but were in middle earth for a different reason; to serve as advisers and messengers for the free peoples, and their powers were there to aid them in troubled times. Their staves could have shown that they, being maiar in middle earth for a different reason, were allowed to use their powers and if the staff broke by physical means, that doesn't mean they weren't allowed to use their godly power. If they were cast down that could mean they weren't allowed to as they were no longer the messengers of the Valar. They would still be ABLE to, but that would be like a police officer searching a house without a warrant, or incapacitating a citizen without a justification.
Gah... I'm probably repeating myself but still, you get the idea.
But yes, just like instruments, you could pretend there were three musicians, one who plays guitar, one who plays violin and one who plays clarinet. To show that they were musicians they each carry a music stand. See the similarities? They can use their stands to help them play music (help them cast spells) but without a stand a musician might be able to play what he remembers on his own instrument without the use of a stand (Guitarist remembers songs which he can play without a music stand) which could be like Saruman using the power of his voice which he had.