Istari and their staves

[Khazad-dûm]

Hey I don't know if someones said this already I tried to read every post but there are a lot and some quite long.

I think that the staff's are only status symbols in there order and that their power and magical ability is because they are Maiar

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Khazad-dûm

Hey I don't know if someones said this already I tried to read every post but there are a lot and some quite long.
I think that the staff's are only status symbols in there order

This is kinda the thread's main idea...

Originally Posted by Khazad-dûm

and that their power and magical ability is because they are Maiar

Yes. An example would be Melian - I don't recall reading about any staff, but she was still able to protect Doriath and do less noticeable "magic". I think it is marvelous how people can always read some message in her eyes...
A bit off topic there. Sorry!

[Khazad-dûm]

I was just agreeing with #2 instead of #1, 3, or 4 in the first post...
and yes Melian is also Maiar but she is not in the Order of Istari...

[Khazad-dûm]

and I just noticed this...

""When Gandalf states about Saruman that "He has power still, I think, in Orthanc; to resist the Nazgul." Does this emphasize the point that maybe a wizard's power was not drawn from a staff?"

I think it does emphasize that the wizards power was not drawn from his staff they just have the power in them.

[doug*platypus]

Referring back to the original post, I would cast my vote for #3, that the staffs were both conduits and symbols. However, I would say that they were more a symbol of their office rather than their power. The main passage I am thinking of is the very powerful moment when Gandalf breaks Saruman's staff and expels him from the order. Saruman is no longer one of them. It is more of a ceremonial move imho, although it may well have also served to limit Saruman's power in some way.

In reference to their being conduits, Gandalf on several occasions appears to use his staff to focus his power and perform some feat such as lighting fuel on Caradhras or breaking the Bridge of Khazad-Dum. Also, I'm not convinced that he actually did use spells on the Balrog after losing his staff. The closest reference I could find to his possibly using magic in the battle is the following rather obscure observation of Gandalf:

Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire.

These things could possibly have been seen simply as a result of the Balrog bursting into flame, with some inclement weather thrown in the mix. Glamdring and tenacity may well have been enough!

I like the idea of the staffs as a connection to Valinor. They certainly were symbolic of the mandate given to the Istari to act for and on behalf of the Valar, which Saruman had officially stripped of him by Gandalf the White. But as pointed out, Gandalf's white staff did not come from the Undying Lands.

[Alcuin]

• When Aragorn and Frodo watched the battle between Gandalf and the Nazgûl on Weathertop from the Midgewater Marshes, Aragorn said that, “It is like lightning that leaps up from the hill-tops,” and Frodo could see “white flashes” in the distance.
• This sounds very like the “stab of white light” the Company of the Ring saw at the top of the stair when the Chamber of Mazarbul collapsed on the Balrog as it tried to wrench the door from Gandalf’s control.
• When Gandalf was wielding Glamdring against the flaming red sword of the Balrog, there was a “stab of white fire”. (Aside: there were flames running down the sword of the Lord of the Nazgûl when he confronted Gandalf at the Gates of Minas Tirith.)
• When Gandalf broke the Durin’s Bridge, there was “a blinding sheet of white flame”.
• And when Gandalf chased off the pursuing winged Nazgûl to rescue Faramir and his companions as they retreated to Minas Tirith just before the beginning of the siege, Gandalf “raised his hand, and from it a shaft of white light stabbed upwards.”

All of these sound like lightening. At the very least, they are all some kind of intense, white light that the Nazgûl and the Balrog intensely disliked. And as you point out, at least on the peak of Zirakzigil, Gandalf did not have a staff with him.

• In TT, “King of the Golden Hall”, there is the episode where Gandalf silences Wormtongue’s deceits:

  “...I have not passed through fire and death to bandy crooked words with a serving-man till the lightning falls.” He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth.
  
  In the gloom they heard the hiss of Wormtongue’s voice: “Did I not counsel you, lord, to forbid his staff? That fool, Hama, has betrayed us!” There was a flash as if lightning had cloven the roof. Then all was silent. Wormtongue sprawled on his face. …

  I had always assumed that Gandalf produced the lightning using his staff; now I am not so sure.

Gandalf did use the staff when starting the fire on Caradhras, and his staff broke when he broke Durin’s Bridge, as doug*platypus has pointed out. But perhaps the bridge incident can be explained another way: “The Istari” essay in UT says early on that the Istari

…were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to … open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good…

When Gandalf fought the Balrog in Moria, although he was still confined to a “shape weak and humble”, it was a battle between two Maia, something that had not taken place in Middle-earth since Eönwë the Herald of Manwë fought in the War of Wrath. Perhaps in breaking his staff, Gandalf was signifying that he was putting off any pretense of appearing to be a Man or Elf, summoning all the strength available to him as Olórin the Maia, hobbled as he might remain by the restrictions imposed upon him when he left Valinor. That was his best hope of saving the Ring-bearer and the Heir of Elendil from Durin’s Bane; and of course, he died after overthrowing the Balrog.

Which leads to this: If that last paragraph is correct, and Gandalf broke his staff as a sign that he had broken his restrictions as an Istar, did he die merely from physical injuries sustained fighting the Balrog, or also because that was the natural outcome of his decision to “fight like a Maia”?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

did he die merely from physical injuries sustained fighting the Balrog, or also because that was the natural outcome of his decision to “fight like a Maia”?

I always interpreted Gandalf's death as neither of these. I think that since he used ALL his power to defeat the Balrog, he didn't have any strength to stay alive. I mean both inner and physical strength. I don't think that his death was a punishment for revealling himself as a Maia at a time of need - why would it be? Gandalf was went back to ME to complete his task, so I think that the Valar and Eru totally approved of Gandalf's choice. Just think - would they rather have Gandalf reveal himself once or let Sauron get the Ring? Cause that's what would've happened if Gandalf didn't stop the Balrog from killing the whole Fellowship.

[Inziladun]

One thing that I find curious is that upon the arrival of the Istari in Middle-earth, staves were not apparently seen carried by all of them by the Elves at the Havens.

The first to come was of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair, and a fair voice, and he was clad in white; great skill he had in works of hand, and he was regarded by well-nigh all, even by the Eldar, as the head of the Order. Others there were also: two clad in sea-blue, and one in earthen brown; and last came one who seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, grey-haired and grey-clad, and leaning on a staff.

UT The Istari (emphasis mine)

If all of them had staves when the disembarked, why was Gandalf's possession of one noteworthy? And if only Gandalf brought his from the Undying Lands, perhaps that was symbolic of the fact that he was, ultimately, the greatest among them, as discerned by Círdan.

But Cirdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in [Gandalf] the greatest spirit and the wisest...

UT The Istari

Also, the only occasion in which we "see" Radagast personally in the story, when Gandalf describes their meeting on the Greenway to the Council of Elrond, he is not described as having a staff.

I'm not saying any of this is definitive, but I do wonder why it seems that the staff was mainly associated with Gandalf, and not to the Istari as a whole, at least not initially.