Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[cfwmac007]

i believe the movie had a more accurate then people want to give. it is true both sauron and gandalf are maiar and so are balrogs and good ol' tom. sauron is far from the strongest of the maiar, but is the powerful in speech craft. the balrogs were the stronges of the maiar that came under the control of melkor. when sauron had the rings made tainted all but the 3 for the elves. sauron put is will and power into the ring so that his will would extend to the others that wore the other rings. 1000 years after sauron's defeat by last army of elves and men, the istari came to middle earth. the istari are 5 maiar sent by the valar to stop the coming great darkness. The istari are different than the other maiar that came to middle earth. The istari were limited to form of men and the powers that be found within the mortal world (talk about a handicap). Sauron does not have this limitation. The witch king was the most powerful of the witches even before given one of the nine. The ring would farther augment his ablities. to me in the books when gandalf tells pippen about the prophecy that he, in his heavily handicapped form, he did not seem to sure himself if he could defeat the witch-king. this comes from bestiary that david day put together, and it has an index to where to go in tolkiens works to find the information. i ready the lord of the rings more the twenty times (jurassic park i read almost 40 times). gandalf in middle earth is far from invincible and his body is still mortal. he did die after the fight with the belrog and in his words " he was sent back", this is also why he is a little confused when he is first called gandalf upon his return... you know like moving from one house to a bigger one, you still have everything (one hopes) you just got to find it again.

my biggest complaint was the lack of sam using the ring in the movies. in the book he uses the ring directly under sauron's nose, and sauron is none the wiser.

[skip spence]

Words well spoken, Morth!

And welcome to the downs, cfwmac007!

I believe you are mistaken though. Gandalf the Gray took down a Balrog single-handedly and when he was sent back his powers were enhanced. The Witch-King and four of his lieutenants couldn't even handle a midget and one dude with a stick.

[elronds_daughter]

Bravo, Morth! (Also, well said, skip.)

It's disconcerting at best to come back after a long absence from our beloved 'Downs and find a thread I opinionated in years ago still going. (Perhaps it makes me feel old, more than anything else.)

But, on topic, I don't think Jackson & Co. very properly represented Gandalf -- or the Witch King, for that matter. True, he was rather a menace, but how much of a threat was he, really, pitted against a Maia? The Witch King, evil and menacing though he was, was only a man. Faded to wraith or no, he was still not much more than human. True, he had one of the Nine, but Gandalf had one of the Three. The odds were pretty stacked against the poor WK. Scary as he was, he was just not as inherently powerful as PJ wanted to make him out to be.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Again.

[Edit: It's also a little disconcerting to find that some of the original posters no longer exist on the 'Downs...]

[cfwmac007]

this is taken directectly from david day's bestiary

" the most terrible o th the maiar spirits who became servants of melkor, the dark enemy, were those who were transformed into demons. in the high elven tongue they were named the valaraukar, but in middle-earth were called balrogs."

gandalf does not have an easy fight for they fight from the deepest parts of moria to the peak of Zirakzigil.

Taken from appendix b at the back of the return of the king,
"23 gandalf pursues the balrog to the peak of zirakzigil.
25 he cast down the balrog, and passes away. his body lies on the peak.

february
14 the mirror of galadriel. gandalf returns to life and lies in a trance."

also in appendix b

"the istari... were messengers sent to contest the power of sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resit him: but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate elves or men by force and fear."

even after being sent back he is still heavily restricted. they don't want to replace one tyrant with another, remember the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by cfwmac007

this is taken directectly from david day's bestiary

Sorry Mac, but David Day is about as reliable as a drunken, one-eyed night watchman...in the fog.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Sorry Mac, but David Day is about as reliable as a drunken, one-eyed night watchman...in the fog.

But only when said watchman has an eye-infection?

First time I've heard this guy mentioned, actually. Who is he?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

But only when said watchman has an eye-infection?

First time I've heard this guy mentioned, actually. Who is he?

In the unlikely, but not entirely impossible case that you're not kidding, see here.

To be fair, the quote cfwmac007* gave is not that terribly off the mark, but in general, I think Morth has described Day's reliability very well. I guess the success of his books is largely due to Day's undeniable talent for recruiting good illustrators.
I still own a copy of his Bestiary - in German translation to boot, which was obviously made by someone who hadn't read Tolkien's original books - , and while the pictures are mostly gorgeous, the text suffers from a curious mix of simplification and personal speculation passed off as fact.


*Welcome to the Downs, by the way! With a name like that, I first took you for one of the spambots who have been haunting this place in ever-increasing flocks recently. Glad to see I was mistaken; enjoy being dead!

[narfforc]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

But only when said watchman has an eye-infection?

First time I've heard this guy mentioned, actually. Who is he?

I actually met him at Oxomoot many years ago, mad as a march hare. He was asked to leave after annoying everybody with his latest attempts at latching on to the works of Tolkien. He was adamant that some kind of Bible Code could done with numbers in Tolkiens books...ie:- one ....nine.....seven.....three are the rings....what year did Tolkien die?....1973...there was lots more, I've never seen any news of his book since.

[Cirdan]

Originally Posted by elronds_daughter

The Witch King, evil and menacing though he was, was only a man. Faded to wraith or no, he was still not much more than human. True, he had one of the Nine, but Gandalf had one of the Three. The odds were pretty stacked against the poor WK.

I don't have much to add to this subject (which appears to have been flogged to death and beyond) but this is a good point. Though the Elven rings were not weapons, Narya's ability to grant courage is directly counter to the Nazgul's chief weapon -fear ...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... their two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Their *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to Sauron.... Their *four*...no... *Amongst* their weapons.... Amongst their weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

NOBODY expects the Nazgul! Amongst their weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to Sauron, and nice black uniforms - Oh damn!

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by cfwmac007

i believe the movie had a more accurate then people want to give. it is true both sauron and gandalf are maiar and so are balrogs and good ol' tom. sauron is far from the strongest of the maiar, but is the powerful in speech craft.

As I remember, in Silmarion Sauron is named the most powerful and dreadful servant of Melkor. Cant provide a quote, so may be I am wrong...

Originally Posted by cfwmac007

The istari are different than the other maiar that came to middle earth. The istari were limited to form of men and the powers that be found within the mortal world (talk about a handicap). Sauron does not have this limitation.

It doesn't look they were limited to that extent. They looked like men and they suffered like men; they were, however, so vigorous that could survive conditions that no man was able to, their life span looked unlimited. They could be killed, but this is the case for everyone in mortal lands. Like High Elves, they could see what happens in both worlds, I'm sure. In the end, it looks, they were not deprived of their inherent magic powers, but were strictly recommended not to use them unless they needed to save the day or themselves. Let me remind you Gandalf's fireworks at Weathertop and in Hollin, where he fighted against the Nazgul and wargs respectively. Another case is Gandalf's struggle with the Balrog in the Chamber of Mazarbul. That was perhaps the only direct encounter of two magic powers described in LOTR (though it doesn't happen in the movie); Gandalf described it with the words 'I have met my match' - even before he had learned it was the Balrog. And can you mention other man slaying a Balrog?

Istari were also advised not to attempt encountering the Enemy in person or becoming Lords to peoples of ME. I tend to think that apart from their bodily hardships all other restrictions Istari carried out themselves; for that reason they were capable of violating these limitations. In other words, Istari were not stripped of their inherent Mayar powers.

Originally Posted by cfwmac007

The witch king was the most powerful of the witches even before given one of the nine.

Was he? I thought he was the most powerful of kings and became a witch under the power of his ring.

Originally Posted by cfwmac007

The ring would farther augment his ablities. to me in the books when gandalf tells pippen about the prophecy that he, in his heavily handicapped form, he did not seem to sure himself if he could defeat the witch-king.

This is correct, but let's look at possible reasons. First of all, Gandalf would have never said 'I will win' before the battle was over. Simply because he was a wise one. Secondly, in accord with the limitations, imposed on Istari, he preferred to keep public unaware of his real abilities. Who would have taken seriously and watched closely strange activities of a nosy old man, the Master of Fireworks? His humility proved to be a perfect disguise; it helped, for instance, against the Balrog, who otherwise could have postponed a direct attack and would have probably tried to exhaust Gandalf by means of magic or used orcs' aid.

Thirdly, Witch King was a very difficult opponent not just because he wielded great powers, but because he was invincible for ordinary arms. Merry's sword was the only blade on Pelenor Fields which was able to undo the spell sealed in a ring (one of The Nine). I wonder if Pippin had a similar dagger but Gandalf couldn't have known anyway. That doesn't mean Gandalf was incapable of dealing with the sorcery. Four of The Seven were destroyed in dragons' fire; one of The Nine could have been destroyed similarly and I think, Gandalf was able to generate the heat he needed to penetrate the protection, even at the price of self-exhaustion. May be he would have found some other way, but not an easy one.

Things were even more ghastly at the moment of the encounter for two reasons. Gandalf definitely didn't wish to set Minas Tirith ablaze. Also Witch King was leading a huge army and could have easily find some aid, while Gandalf was alone and couldn't expect an honest single combat.

All this means Witch King was a perilous opponent for Gandalf. The actual fight, nevertheless, didn't occur in the book, and Gandalf prevailed by the means of counsel and encouraging. Neither does the fight happen in the film. Instead WK needs just one flash to throw Gandalf the White from his stead and break his staff - an efficiency that requires a power of Vallar if not Eru.

Originally Posted by cfwmac007

my biggest complaint was the lack of sam using the ring in the movies. in the book he uses the ring directly under sauron's nose, and sauron is none the wiser.

That's a good point.