Werewolf LXXXI: Under the Misty Mountains

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Sally

As for the seer bit, I would have done the same thing. In fact I did, last game, in order to save Skip. But I usually wouldn't do that if I didn't think the seer was in danger, or if I didn't have a darn good reason otherwise. So I don't know.

I haven't forgotten last game– but that was such a different situation I didn't think it was even worth taking into account.

I am frustrated with phantom– less with the actual ploy, whatever it is, than with his attitude that nothing he does should be questioned.

Originally Posted by Sally

Babe, you're not making sense. I understand your piece about Phantom, and agree with it actually, though that's just sort of who he is, but to say that you'd rather I was lynched than Lottie? You would have learned nothing. Well, you would have, in that an innocent would have been lynched and, when Lottie did get lynched and was proven guilty, you would have had a lot to look at in regards to the first Day. But saying "I wish we hadn't Fenris'd someone" is never okay to say. Never. Sure, say "We should lynch Sally and see what happens and what we can learn with both of them dead" but you can't say you'd rather I was dead than a proven elf. I can't understand why you would say this unless you were one too. Sorry, kid, but it's true.

Er– hang on. I thought he meant, "YesterDay I would have rather Sally had been lynched", not "I now wish Lottie hadn't been lynched". You reckon that's what he meant?

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I haven't forgotten last game– but that was such a different situation I didn't think it was even worth taking into account.

Fair enough. And in fact I was saying the same thing. I think it's perfectly logical to fake seer in order to save the seer or to put yourself in more danger in order to protect them, but I don't think Phantom had the reasoning or timing to do so.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I am frustrated with Phantom– less with the actual ploy, whatever it is, than with his attitude that nothing he does should be questioned.

Meh, understandable. I don't think he's a cleared innocent either, but I must say....I think him not voting may actually speak more to his innocence than if he had voted Lottie at Day's end. Shocking, you say? Scandalous? Not really.

Let's say Phantom is a SoB....erm, SoE. *headdesks, couldn't resist* Knowing that Phantom is a dirty, lowdown, double-crossing scumbag (with love, dear), he would likely be happy to vote for a packmate. It would make him look good, in fact. Thus, why wouldn't he just pile his votes on and say "look at me, I killed Lottie" and add to his train of Reasons Not to Suspect Phantom? It would make sense to do so, and while yes, some people would likely call him out and say "but you didn't kill her, in fact she was already dead before you voted", he would still look good to the masses, his "vote me and I won't vote you" pledge aside.

Basically, a wolf!Phantom would bus his packmate if he got the chance and it was really advantageous for him to do so. I'm not saying he would kill a packmate just because he fancied it, but I feel that he would double cross a fellow wolf/elf/thing if the situation had desired benefits. Especially if said packmate was already dead, or mostly dead, or whatever.

Granted, I'm not saying that I trust Phantom completely, because he could have thought of all the above beforehand and predicted that I (or someone else) would say this exact thing in his defense, but I think that voting for Lottie would have, in that case, looked actually worse than not voting at all.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Er– hang on. I thought he meant, "YesterDay I would have rather Sally had been lynched", not "I now wish Lottie hadn't been lynched". You reckon that's what he meant?

I think he meant a bit of both, at least subconsciously? I think he means that yesterDay he would have preferred to see me lynched, and he still feels that way toDay. More of a preference to having me dead than an outright attitude of "I wish Lottie was still alive", but the undertones -subtext, for Shasta's enjoyment- still remain the same. He wasn't happy with yesterDay's lynch, and that makes me nervous.


EDIT: x'd since my last, and attempting to fix all my bolding/italics because Chrome is hateful

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Yet, there is a big difference from one SoE gambling on a day1, to two SoE doing it. I would never say that we wouldn't see a SoE acting very bold/inexperienced on day1, it has been seen many times before, but for them to openly team up in such a gamble is more unlikely.

Which is why it didn't happen. One elf, yes, two elves, no.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Read my post again, Rune. The point is, Lottie's decision to vote phantom when she did might well have been something she decided for herself; therefore it doesn't tell us much about Sally.

I think what you're saying is that Lottie could have jumped onto my vote without my consent or prior knowledge/planning. Yes?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

I think what you're saying is that Lottie could have jumped onto my vote without my consent or prior knowledge/planning. Yes?

Exactly.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Exactly.

Just checking.

[satansaloser2005]

Okay, so we know Phantom's not the seer, because....well, he's not and stuff, so the reveal at the end of yesterDay was likely either to protect the seer (for which we should all thank him, because we love our seer, don't we?) or to make it look like he was so he could get a pass toDay. Really, though, I don't think he would do that as a wolf, at least not on the first Day and without at least some reasoning he could point at to avoid getting lynched. Besides which, this is getting him attention, which is what he wants more than most things in the world (apart from rep votes, of course, and that's mostly the same thing). So basically I don't think we should pay too much attention to it, at least not now.

You know what we should pay attention to? The vote count I'm about to make.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Sally

Okay, so we know Phantom's not the seer, because....well, he's not and stuff, so the reveal at the end of yesterDay was likely either to protect the seer (for which we should all thank him, because we love our seer, don't we?) or to make it look like he was so he could get a pass toDay. Really, though, I don't think he would do that as a wolf, at least not on the first Day and without at least some reasoning he could point at to avoid getting lynched.

This and your argument about phantom's failing to vote being a point in his favour are both too... conjectural for my taste. Too much depend on your ability to predict what he'd do.

Case in point:

Originally Posted by Sally

he would likely be happy to vote for a packmate. It would make him look good, in fact. Thus, why wouldn't he just pile his votes on and say "look at me, I killed Lottie" and add to his train of Reasons Not to Suspect Phantom?

Funny thing is, though– phantom himself says earlier that he would never do that.
You see, he argues that it's in his favour, too, but for the exact opposite reason.

Actually, there are a couple of points in his favour: one is the rather obvious one that what he did was practically a request to get himself dreamed. The other is more subtle and indeed tenuous – the way Lottie kept responding to questions about her own behaviour with defences of tp, though it's true the two were related– framing attempt? It's possible.