WWLXXI: Something in the Night

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rikae

I can't imagine a wolf would actually say something incriminating to his/her non-wolf lover without checking the rules on that point first. That would be suicide, and the wolf who did it wouldn't deserve any special consideration because xe decided to do something so foolish.

How come this doesn't sound like an innocent speculation but something someone says out of personal experience? A frustration with your partners perhaps? Add to this the way you make the 180 degree turn on the issue of the self-evidence of the rules?

But even if the rules look like clear now, with Gwath's clarification, why then, if any wolf-lovers knew their mates to be wolves and would know they would win by revealing that, why haven't they stepped forwards already? What are you grasping at Rikae? Why such an intense stance?

Okay. We have a long history of differences and we have gotten each other lynched a host of times for the bad of the village. So I'm not going to vote you toDay, on D1. But if we're around toMorrow I will look at you more closely.

So

++ Sally

I hope to see you toMorrow but if not, I hope I have left thoughts enough to read.

Good n/Night!

[wilwarin538]

So I need to vote now, I might not have the chance to come back on, and since I honestly can't find anything wrong with anyone at this point, I'm going to vote for

++Lariren

I should be able to come on fairly frequently next Day. Good luck!

[Nogrod]

I was actually going to sleep but while brushing my teeth I actually came to think about this and thought I'd better share it before logging out.

Now there was something that bothered me with Rikae's stance on the issue, but it was also that something on the whole issue didn't seem like right. And now I think I found the reason for it.

So the rules say this (bolding mine):

Originally Posted by The rules

Lovers: All players will have a lover counterpart with whom they can correspond via PM at all times. Ordos and wolves may be paired up. Unlike normal lovers, the lovers in this game will be able to survive if their counterpart is killed.

So it actually says that the thing that is different from a normal lovers' role is solely the fact that the other part to the relationship can outlive the other - and that is actually nothing unheard of as we've had that kind of games before - and it might have interesting follow-up's depending on how the innocents are able to guess on their lover or how the wolves work with their lovers respectively. And how the allegiances work in the first place - of these I'm quite optimistic.

But that would actually mean also that the winning conditions for lovers will be the same as they always have been, eg. that the lovers only win together as there is no mention about a new ruling where a lover can win without her/his mate. The only difference to the rule is that they can outlive one another (and of course after that freed from the relationship and able to be what they wish). There is no mention of a possible new victory-condition for one lover without another (and what kind of lovers' roles would those be in the first place?).

So I can see now why no-one has come forwards to betray their mate - if they knew the identity of their lover in the first place. And the wolves have probably checked this out already a long time ago and just smile at us trying to figure it out.

So were you not thinking of this Rikae while you boasted on being on top of the issues or did you try to achieve something with your polemics on the issue while knowing it and still trying to look like you didn't?

Well, do not forget that angle to the issue toMorrow.

And good luck!

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Loslote making what look like random accusations,

They were random. I made them up on the spot. Really, I have no idea about any of them. (Except EvilWolfNerwen, of course. )

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Of Lottie and Morsul it's hard to say. Thay have actually behaved in a lot of similar ways - and neither has shown themselves after the very first hours. It might be timezones once again and I'm quite insecure with voting them as especially Morsul seems to be the "usual suspect" - although he tends to slip as a wolf just because of that. Possible candidates, though.

Timezones and the fact that I have had no power for fifteen hours - no heat, no electricity, no running water, and worst of all, no Internet.

[Loslote]

About the lover issue:

I of course don't trust mine completely. They could be a wolf for all I know. But I'm certainly not going to vote them or suspect them. Even if I think they're a wolf, what would be the point of saying "ooh! ooh! lynch x! I think they're a wolf and want to seriously hurt our chances of winning by giving up the power to pm with a wolf and maybe get xem to reveal their packmates!"? Plus, what they say in private is private. No one should be lynched based on what their lover says.

In any case, there would be no reason for someone to think thier lover slipped and revealed that they're a wolf. Wolves are smarter than that. More likely they were an ordo trying to get you to slip and reveal that you're a wolf.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Even if I think they're a wolf, what would be the point of saying "ooh! ooh! lynch x! I think they're a wolf and want to seriously hurt our chances of winning by giving up the power to pm with a wolf and maybe get xem to reveal their packmates!"?

And if you die, this would be so incredibly helpful to the village.

Originally Posted by Loslote

Plus, what they say in private is private. No one should be lynched based on what their lover says.

Where does it say that in the admin thread? Stop making up rules. Just because it seems nice and romantic doesn't mean it's good WW. Plus, if this were true it would be bad form for gifteds to reveal, too.

Originally Posted by Loslote

In any case, there would be no reason for someone to think thier lover slipped and revealed that they're a wolf. Wolves are smarter than that. More likely they were an ordo trying to get you to slip and reveal that you're a wolf.

Unless I missed something, these wolves, like most wolves, know each other's roles anyway... so a lover going "ooh, I'm a wolf, are you one too?" isn't going to accomplish much.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Rikae

And if you die, this would be so incredibly helpful to the village.

Where does it say that in the admin thread? Stop making up rules. Just because it seems nice and romantic doesn't mean it's good WW. Plus, if this were true it would be bad form for gifteds to reveal, too.


Unless I missed something, these wolves, like most wolves, know each other's roles anyway... so a lover going "ooh, I'm a wolf, are you one too?" isn't going to accomplish much.

Oh, but I like things to be nice and romantic, plus no one ever can quote pms. Isn't that one of the basic foundation rules of WW? Unless Gwath says he's changing that, I'm assuming we can't use pm reasoning, because it would be basically meta.

And how does that link to gifteds??

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So it actually says that the thing that is different from a normal lovers' role is solely the fact that the other part to the relationship can outlive the other - and that is actually nothing unheard of as we've had that kind of games before

Really? I only recall a lover who lived a day for a revenge kill and the mod's amusement... or else lover-like roles who still retained their own side's normal allegiances and conditions of winning. Actually, I remember lovers who *did* die together, but were on opposite sides and won with their respective teams, too.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But that would actually mean also that the winning conditions for lovers will be the same as they always have been, eg. that the lovers only win together as there is no mention about a new ruling where a lover can win without her/his mate. The only difference to the rule is that they can outlive one another (and of course after that freed from the relationship and able to be what they wish.

That doesn't mean any such thing. He didn't say anything about the lovers' winning conditions in the beginning, only that they don't die together; but it makes little sense for lovers who don't die together to win only together. If one dies, the other is alive, but has no role, no motivation. Like I said, I've only seen that once, and that only involved living for a day to make silly random posts.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So I can see now why no-one has come forwards to betray their mate - if they knew the identity of their lover in the first place

Really? Why? Misguided concern for fairness to wolves? As if I believe that... anyone with a question can always PM the mod. The game is fair... that is, until people (like Wilwa's lover, maybe? Or Wilwa herself?) start working for the other team for meta-game reasons. If it's not part of your role, it's not fair, and if the wolves win because innocents are letting them win, I'm going to be royally ticked off.

EDIT: X'd with Loslote's 2nd post.

[wilwarin538]

What Nog said makes sense, and is honestly exactly what was going through my head until Gwath's clarification.

During Night 1 I was distinctly under the impression that the only thing that made us different from traditional Lovers was that we don't die together, I assumed everything else was the same, therefore assumed that our main goal (as long as our love was alive) was to survive til the end with our lover, no matter what side won. Rikae, this may not be how you understood it, but it's clearly how some others understood it (including at least me and my lover).

Aswell my lover and I were under the impression that we could tell each other our roles. So we did. Because we thought our Lover role was priority over our other role, and therefore believed that knowing each other's role would help us achieve a win as Lovers (since at the time that's what we thought the goal was).

So if we don't restart and we continue as is, any information I gained from my private PMs with my partner will remain between him and I, at least as long as both of us are alive. You may not agree with that, but it doesn't seem fair to me for either of us to use any information we may have gained from each other in private, when that information was collected when we had a different understanding of the dynamics of the game. It's not fair to anyone.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Loslote

In any case, there would be no reason for someone to think thier lover slipped and revealed that they're a wolf. Wolves are smarter than that. More likely they were an ordo trying to get you to slip and reveal that you're a wolf.

Ahh, are we still on about this? If someone had good information on a wolf, I would expect them to reveal it. If that doesn't occur, I have to conclude nothing of the sort is available. There's no way to know if someone is holding out or not, is there? I don't get what you mean by the last part, Lottie. Would the real wolves not be fully aware who their packmates were?

So. Voting-time isn't too far away. What have we?

I'm reluctant to vote for Rikae, despite a general feeling of misgiving. It's pretty standard for me to suspect her, as I said, so I'd like to have something more concrete to go on.

Sally is..Sally. Rather odd and not around too much (the first bit's a compliment) . I don't think it should be her toDay.

Morsul... not a great deal to work with, but probably the brightest ping on the radar. His early response to Lottie's joking suspicion on him seemed strange. Like I said, it admittedly isn't much, but it may be the best shot I see for toDay.

Wilwa...well, lots of talk about the Lover roles, and a vote for Lari. It's the latter that I dislike more, since I generally don't like going for someone who hasn't been around on Day 1, especially when there could have been RL reasons for it. She said she couldn't find anyone else, which is plausible for Day 1, I guess. Still one to watch.

Nog goes after a semi-submarine, which seems fairly in-character for him. But I don't recall him really giving a reason to vote her. Hmm.

Shasta: Who's that? Is he playing?

Alon: don't really recall much from her except IC stuff and references to some decadent soiree in Boston...

I feel like I'm missing someone.

x/d with the last 5 posts or so

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Ahh, are we still on about this? If someone had good information on a wolf, I would expect them to reveal it. If that doesn't occur, I have to conclude nothing of the sort is available. There's no way to know if someone is holding out or not, is there? I don't get what you mean by the last part, Lottie. Would the real wolves not be fully aware who their packmates were?

I feel like I'm missing someone.

Sorry. Never been a wolf. That should have been obvious...

Glirdan, Izzy, me, and Lari.

EDIT: xed with Rikae.

[Morsul the Dark]

wilwa and Lari voted each other nog voted sally I have to read more...

Lottie you're right! right now I am confused

[satansaloser2005]

To Sir Nog (though he's long gone): I was just voicing my thoughts that caution when communicating with your lover is key, as some might tend to trust their lover and tell them things (suspicions, etc., and that's just for an ordo!) without considering that they'd be a wolf. Forgive me, but if I know I'm apt to make a slip I consider it my duty not only to remind myself not to do it but to caution others against it as well.



And on that note, a vote count.

Nog-->Sally
Wilwa-->Lari
Rikae-->Wilwa
Morsul-->Wilwa

Which means that anything can happen. Here's a brief list based on how I'm feeling at the moment, and then, internet permitting, I'll read through the thread and offer a bit of commentary.


Leaning toward trusting: Nogrod, Dun, Shasta, Glirdan
Hesitant toward: Lottie, Rikae, Wilwa
Can't decide on: Everyone else (Lari, Morsul, Alona, Izzy)
Pure evil: Nerwen, Gwath

EDIT: x'd since Morsul and edited my vote count accordingly. Seems a bit hasty, to be honest. Perhaps he'll move to my second category.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But even if the rules look like clear now, with Gwath's clarification, why then, if any wolf-lovers knew their mates to be wolves and would know they would win by revealing that, why haven't they stepped forwards already?

Oh, I don't know... maybe for the reasons Wilwa gave, and you agreed with? And you accuse me of being inconsistent!

I'm going to have to vote soon, as I have other things to do and don't want to miss the deadline. I'm considering voting for Nog for his nonsensical harping on my supposed 180 turn, ignoring the fact that I went and looked at the admin thread between those posts. The fact is, what I said - which amounts to "I'm not sure about the roles, a wolf would have checked the roles" - would only be inconsistent if I were a wolf, so he's basically arguing from that assumption, which doesn't look very kosher. Trouble is I have a history of going after Nog for saying something that looks bizarre/illogical at the time, and then finding out he's just an ordo... perhaps I'll vote for the other defender of HSW*s, Wilwa... or maybe go for a quiet one after all, though not Lari, since missing Day 1 totally probably has a RL explanation; perhaps Morsul, whose earlier posts unnerved me already.

*Hypothetical Slipping Wolves

EDIT: X'd with Wilwa, whose vote I don't like for the reasons I said I wouldn't vote Lari.