Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mugwump

Utter nonsense, Jolt. While the Istari were clothed in the bodies of old men, and those bodies could feel and be affected by the same things as men's, there is absolutely no doubt that they were Ainur, the same type of being as the Valar and the Maia, with powers and defenses far, far greater than any possessed by a mortal man.

Yet, at least as the Grey, his body was mortal in the sense that it could wear down, wear out, and be destroyed. If not, Gandalf could have leapt down on the wolves and goblins that had trapped him, Bilbo and the Dwarves in the tree (he was prepared to, but it seemed like it was going to be a sacrifice play).

Then again, he did survive the fall with the Balrog...

For whatever reason, Peter Jackson's Gandalf of Return of the King is a very different Gandalf from Tolkien's.

It was Peter Jackson's take on the work, which was not only internally inconsistent, but a departure from the source.

The scenery was nice...

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by alatar

Yet, at least as the Grey, his body was mortal in the sense that it could wear down, wear out, and be destroyed. If not, Gandalf could have leapt down on the wolves and goblins that had trapped him, Bilbo and the Dwarves in the tree (he was prepared to, but it seemed like it was going to be a sacrifice play).

I've always thought that since The Hobbit was told as a children's story, it could be seen (at least I choose to see it) as a simplified story about the Third Age as told to children, and thus not necessarily a literal retelling of the events as they "actually occurred" in Tolkien's world.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mugwump

I've always thought that since The Hobbit was told as a children's story, it could be seen (at least I choose to see it) as a simplified story about the Third Age as told to children, and thus not necessarily a literal retelling of the events as they "actually occurred" in Tolkien's world.

True enough. Then how about Gandalf's discomforture during his imprisonment on the top of Orthanc? If his body was invulnerable to harm, he could have simply jumped off and made a run for it.

He also is anxious in the claws of the Eagle (if I remember correctly).

The whole point of this thread is that the movie Gandalf in that scene was inconsistent with the Gandalf of the novel

Agreed, though Peter Jackson's Gandalf is inconsistent within the movie as well. Check out the Scene-by-scene forum to see my whining and nitpicking about this issue.

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by alatar

If his body was invulnerable to harm, he could have simply jumped off and made a run for it. He also is anxious in the claws of the Eagle (if I remember correctly).

Who said Gandalf's body was invulnerable to harm? Certainly not I, nor anyone else here, I think.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mugwump

Who said Gandalf's body was invulnerable to harm? Certainly not I, nor anyone else here, I think.

Originally Posted by Mugwump

Yes, Jolt, I do believe that if Gandalf is (as you admit) Ainur, then since the Ainur are neither men nor mortals, but are in fact immortal, therefore Gandalf is neither a man, nor mortal. What is confusing to you about that conclusion? And incidentally, immortals can die, although they do not age.

Sorry; I took the above to mean that you think that Gandalf's body was not subject to nature.

[JoltFlame]

Actually, Gandalf according to the book, differs subtly from Gandalf according to the movie. In the movie, Gandalf is made inferior to the Witch-king whereas in the book, we must assume that Gandalf equals the Witch-king in power for no letter or confrontation tells otherwise.

Thus we must conclude that The Black Captain outmatches Gandalf in the movie, but they are equal in the book, and the overall trial of strength ends in favour of the Leader of the Nine.