Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[JoltFlame]

It ought to be obvious that I was referring to the dagger which Merry possessed.

In regard to the question stating if Gandalf was mortal, I have to say, that is foolish, even for a question. He returned enhanced and wiser but he was still mortal, of course, and a man only.

The Black Captain also gained strength before assaulting the White City, and his power increased as time passed, that is why he was able to outmatch The White Rider.

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by JoltFlame

In regard to the question stating if Gandalf was mortal, I have to say, that is foolish, even for a question. He returned enhanced and wiser but he was still mortal, of course, and a man only.

Utter nonsense, Jolt. While the Istari were clothed in the bodies of old men, and those bodies could feel and be affected by the same things as men's, there is absolutely no doubt that they were Ainur, the same type of being as the Valar and the Maia, with powers and defenses far, far greater than any possessed by a mortal man.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Just to be perfectly accurate to Tolkien's concept, it was Eru (God) who sent Gandalf back, enhanced in power. ... Referring to the resurrected Gandalf, Tolkien said (letter 156) that his wisdom and power were now much greater.

What part of Gandalf's power do you think comes from his staff in the first place, Ibrîn? Is it really a source of his power and sustenance, as your Latinate signature phrase implies (aside from its more mundane meaning), or is it merely used to focus Gandalf's inherent powers?

For whatever reason, Peter Jackson's Gandalf of Return of the King is a very different Gandalf from Tolkien's. Throughout the movie he lessens in favor of Aragorn, as though there were some insidious transference of power and wisdom from the former to the latter. Even the actor playing Gandalf, Ian McKellen, pitches in with the weakening of Gandalf, by making him cough while smoking in one scene, with Jackson's apparent acquiescence. (I heard McKellen admit that, in typical preachy liberal Hollywood fashion, he did it to add an anti-smoking message to the movie). By the end of the film there's no doubt in the mind of the audience that Aragorn could whip Gandalf's butt in a sword fight, for instance.

(By the way, you're missing a "u" in antiquum.)

[JoltFlame]

I never claimed the Istari weren't Ainur, and since you find my previous post nonsense, I must assume that you believe Gandalf is not a man nor is he mortal.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by JoltFlame

I never claimed the Istari weren't Ainur, and since you find my previous post nonsense, I must assume that you believe Gandalf is not a man nor is he mortal.

I don't quite see your point of contention. If you concede the Istari were of the Maiar, how could Gandalf be mortal?

[Eönwë]

I think that everyone's arguing over different things. Are we talking about movie Gandalf, book Gandalf or Olórin?

Because they are all very different with very different strengths.

Obviously, book Gandalf would win as he comes back stronger than before, and even before he killed a Maia incarnated with its full power before dying himself, which is incomparable to a mere man.

Olórin is the even more obvious victor, as he never dies throughout (though Gandalf the Grey, the incarnation does, he himself doesn't as he's a Maia).


But I think the real question is about movie Gandalf.
As for him, I think that if he can kill a Balrog and break Saruman's staff (both of whom are shown as extremely powerful) he could probably beat the Witch-King. As well as this, the Ringwraiths don't seem to pose much of a threat to Rivendell, whereas in even Lothlorien, in which Galadriel seems more powerful than Elrond with her Mirror and such, they are filled with dread at the thought of a "Balrog of Morgoth".
Obviously, Peter Jackson wants us to think otherwise- that Gandalf and the Witch King are evenly matched, or that the Witch King is even more powerful than Gandalf. But I don't think it makes sense even from a purely "movies" perspective.

[JoltFlame]

But the staff of Gandalf is shattered by The Black Captain, so I fail to see how you can put Gandalf above the Lord of the Nine, especially when discussing the movies.

As for Gandalf, it matters not if the Istari were of Maiar, they could still be slain as they were sent to encounter Sauron, as men.

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by JoltFlame

But the staff of Gandalf is shattered by The Black Captain.

That's the point. That happened only in the movie. In the book, the Witch King threatened Gandalf and fire flickered along his sword, but Gandalf did not move, just sat there placidly on the great horse Shadowfax, with no fear, and neither did Shadowfax move or show any fear. Then the Witch King heard the singing of the approaching men of Rohan, and he retreated from Gandalf.

The point isn't whether the movie Gandalf was stronger than the movie Witch King at that time -- we all agree that the movie Gandalf seemed weaker. The whole point of this thread is that the movie Gandalf in that scene was inconsistent with the Gandalf of the novel. Tolkien's Gandalf would never have had his staff shattered by the Witch King.

[Mugwump]

Yes, Jolt, I do believe that if Gandalf is (as you admit) Ainur, then since the Ainur are neither men nor mortals, but are in fact immortal, therefore Gandalf is neither a man, nor mortal. What is confusing to you about that conclusion? And incidentally, immortals can die, although they do not age. The true difference between a mortal and an immortal may be that a mortal knows that someday he must die. An immortal does not.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Obviously, Peter Jackson wants us to think otherwise- that Gandalf and the Witch King are evenly matched, or that the Witch King is even more powerful than Gandalf. But I don't think it makes sense even from a purely "movies" perspective.

It may not make sense if you are a Tolkien purist, but Jackson was always willing to deviate somewhat to make the cinematic release more effective. In this case he clearly made a conscious decision to give the climactic scenes of the War of the Ring more punch by magnifying Aragorn to be the clear "hero" so that when he became king, got the girl, etc. it would prove more emotionally satisfying by all the traditional cinematic storytelling criteria. So he did what he had to do to make it so.

The fact is, most of the moviegoing public are not Tolkien fanatics. Even I am willing to dismiss problems like wimpy-Gandalf from my mind in order to enjoy the movies, which I think are magnificent (all of them). Yes, the cinematic version is not exactly true to the book. You are correct, it is the movie Gandalf, and in order to appreciate the movie you just have to dismiss from your mind questions about why Gandalf suddenly became so much less powerful and less wise than he was before.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mugwump

Utter nonsense, Jolt. While the Istari were clothed in the bodies of old men, and those bodies could feel and be affected by the same things as men's, there is absolutely no doubt that they were Ainur, the same type of being as the Valar and the Maia, with powers and defenses far, far greater than any possessed by a mortal man.

Yet, at least as the Grey, his body was mortal in the sense that it could wear down, wear out, and be destroyed. If not, Gandalf could have leapt down on the wolves and goblins that had trapped him, Bilbo and the Dwarves in the tree (he was prepared to, but it seemed like it was going to be a sacrifice play).

Then again, he did survive the fall with the Balrog...

For whatever reason, Peter Jackson's Gandalf of Return of the King is a very different Gandalf from Tolkien's.

It was Peter Jackson's take on the work, which was not only internally inconsistent, but a departure from the source.

The scenery was nice...

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by alatar

Yet, at least as the Grey, his body was mortal in the sense that it could wear down, wear out, and be destroyed. If not, Gandalf could have leapt down on the wolves and goblins that had trapped him, Bilbo and the Dwarves in the tree (he was prepared to, but it seemed like it was going to be a sacrifice play).

I've always thought that since The Hobbit was told as a children's story, it could be seen (at least I choose to see it) as a simplified story about the Third Age as told to children, and thus not necessarily a literal retelling of the events as they "actually occurred" in Tolkien's world.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mugwump

I've always thought that since The Hobbit was told as a children's story, it could be seen (at least I choose to see it) as a simplified story about the Third Age as told to children, and thus not necessarily a literal retelling of the events as they "actually occurred" in Tolkien's world.

True enough. Then how about Gandalf's discomforture during his imprisonment on the top of Orthanc? If his body was invulnerable to harm, he could have simply jumped off and made a run for it.

He also is anxious in the claws of the Eagle (if I remember correctly).

The whole point of this thread is that the movie Gandalf in that scene was inconsistent with the Gandalf of the novel

Agreed, though Peter Jackson's Gandalf is inconsistent within the movie as well. Check out the Scene-by-scene forum to see my whining and nitpicking about this issue.

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by alatar

If his body was invulnerable to harm, he could have simply jumped off and made a run for it. He also is anxious in the claws of the Eagle (if I remember correctly).

Who said Gandalf's body was invulnerable to harm? Certainly not I, nor anyone else here, I think.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mugwump

Who said Gandalf's body was invulnerable to harm? Certainly not I, nor anyone else here, I think.

Originally Posted by Mugwump

Yes, Jolt, I do believe that if Gandalf is (as you admit) Ainur, then since the Ainur are neither men nor mortals, but are in fact immortal, therefore Gandalf is neither a man, nor mortal. What is confusing to you about that conclusion? And incidentally, immortals can die, although they do not age.

Sorry; I took the above to mean that you think that Gandalf's body was not subject to nature.

[JoltFlame]

Actually, Gandalf according to the book, differs subtly from Gandalf according to the movie. In the movie, Gandalf is made inferior to the Witch-king whereas in the book, we must assume that Gandalf equals the Witch-king in power for no letter or confrontation tells otherwise.

Thus we must conclude that The Black Captain outmatches Gandalf in the movie, but they are equal in the book, and the overall trial of strength ends in favour of the Leader of the Nine.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Mugwump;619620What part of Gandalf's power do you think comes from his staff in the first place, Ibrîn? Is it really a source of his power and sustenance, as your Latinate signature phrase implies (aside from its more mundane meaning), or is it merely used to focus Gandalf's inherent powers?

(By the way, you're missing a "u" in [I

antiquum[/I].)

Personally, I don't feel that any of an Istar's power comes from his staff, because Tolkien said that all magic in ME is a part of the native power of the being who is using it. (My sig -- sorry about the misspelling; it's been about 40 years since Latin Class -- is actually a personal reference. I'm getting up there, and these old bones and joints are creaking badly, these days. Perhaps I should go back to "Stulta vitarae non potes"....? ) I hadn't realized that post actually made it through -- my computer freaked out on me while I was typing. Oops....

[Galadriel]

Gandalf vs. The Witch King? I would have to say Gandalf, since he is a Maia and the Witch King is just a shadow. Sure, he's strong, but he's no match for Mithrandir! PJ made Gandalf look ludicrously weak. I cringed when I saw the way Gandalf fell off his horse and gave The Witch King that helpless look, as if he were saying 'Well. This is the end of me." He was resurrected by Iluvatar himself and he shakes at the sight of a Ringwraith?
And I agree with one of the above comments. In the movie, Eowyn makes Gandalf look like a pansy. Not that she isn't strong, but if she is NOT as strong as a demi-god, then they shouldn't make it seem like that.
I think Gandalf refused to show a good amount of his power. What he demonstrated in the books was like the tip of an iceberg. Maybe even less. After all, he DOES mention in The Two Towers that he is so powerful that practically no one could match him, except 'the one who sits in the Dark Tower'.
This is one of those areas that Tolkien has left very vague. It's another 'Tom Bombadil' scenario where one just doesn't know what to think. One is sure of something, but the rest is just plagued in a cloud, if you take my meaning.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by JoltFlame

It ought to be obvious that I was referring to the dagger which Merry possessed.

Originally Posted by JoltFlame

In regard to the question stating if Gandalf was mortal, I have to say, that is foolish, even for a question. He returned enhanced and wiser but he was still mortal, of course, and a man only.

Foolish? Let us do math, shall we? How are you at counting past 1000? How about past 2000? Are you using both fingers and toes yet? Gandalf had been in Middle-earth for over 2000 years at the time of the War of the Ring. Please, can you tell me what mortals live over two millenia? He obviously is not a 'mortal man' within the parameters set by Tolkien. The oldest known 'mortal man' was Elros Half-elven, who loved to be 500, but he was given special dispensation and chose the gift of mortality. On a side note, nowhere does it say the WitchKing could indeed not be killed by the hand of man. You misunderstand a prophecy given by Glorfindel, who said:

"Do not pursue him! He will not return to these lands. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."

Just as you took the narrowest view of the quote, so did the WiKi. Glorfindel's prophesy was indeed fulfilled when Eowyn, a female, slew the WiKi, with the aid of a Hobbit (who was indeed an adult male, but technically not a 'man'), but this was only based on circumstance. Nowhere does it say that the WiKi could not be killed by a man. This is emphasized when the WiKi flees from Glorfindel, rather than face an Elf of Aman in his wrath. Why run if the WiKi could not be slain? Was it because Glorfindel was a male Elf but not a 'man'? If that is the case, then Gandalf, a Maia, was no more a 'man' than Glorfindel was a 'man'. Gandalf may have 'appeared' to be a man, but that is no more the case than Glorfindel or Meriadoc not being defined as 'men'.

Which brings us to your contention that the blade of Westernesse used by Meriadoc played a part in the WiKi's destruction. The text points to the blade and not the bearer as the reason for its effect on the Wiki; therefore, a Dunedain male, a mortal man and maker of the knife, would have had the same effect on the WiKi as a Hobbit. The Dunedain who crafted the baneful blades wrought the knives for one specific reason, to kill the WiKi. They didn't make them in fashionable designed colors and hand them out to the ladies of their court.

Originally Posted by JoltFlame

The Black Captain also gained strength before assaulting the White City, and his power increased as time passed, that is why he was able to outmatch The White Rider.

That is not mentioned in the movie, and there is not much emphasis on that point in the book. Funny you should believe something as truth when such a thing is never discussed in movie terms. As far as the movies, PJ was all over the place in regards to the liberties he took from the books, and his annoying inconsistencies were noted several times in this thread. In the books, the WiKi neither broke Gandalf's staff, nor seemed to intimidate him in the least. When facing the Balrog, Gandalf showed real concern. That just was not the case with the WiKi. The WiKi was not, as Tolkien stated, Gandalf's primary foe, Sauron was.

Please read the book again as many times as necessary. Use it like shampoo, wash, rinse, repeat.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

That is not mentioned in the movie, and there is not much emphasis on that point in the book. Funny you should believe something as truth when such a thing is never discussed in movie terms. As far as the movies, PJ was all over the place in regards to the liberties he took from the books, and his annoying inconsistencies were noted several times in this thread. In the books, the WiKi neither broke Gandalf's staff, nor seemed to intimidate him in the least. When facing the Balrog, Gandalf showed real concern. That just was not the case with the WiKi. The WiKi was not, as Tolkien stated, Gandalf's primary foe, Sauron was.

From the movie script (sic), which you can find here:

CLOSE ON: PIPPIN ... desperately seeking reassurance.
PIPPIN
But we have the White Wizard. That's got to count for something.

GANDALF looks down at PIPPIN, he says nothing ...

PIPPIN (cont'd) (nervous) Gandalf?

GANDALF stares into the distance as if seeing something in his mind's eye.

INSERT IMAGE: A TOWERING, HOODED FIGURE, DRESSED in BLACK, is being dressed in ARMOUR by attendant ORCS ...

GANDALF V/0
Sauron has yet to reveal his deadliest servant. . . The one who will lead Mordor's armies in war, the one they say no living man can kill.

CLOSE ON: GANDALF still staring intently as if facing his enemy in .person.

GANDALF
The Witchking of Angmar . . .(he looks down at a startled PIPPIN) , .;
you've met him before . . .

ANGLE ON: PIPPIN looks up at GANDALF, afraid to ask . . .

GANDALF (cont'd) He stabbed Frodo on Weathertop.

INSERT IMAGE: FRODO screaming as the MORGUL BLADE is driven into his SHOULDER . . .

PIPPIN blanches at the MEMORY . . .

GANDALF ( cont'd ) He is the Lord of the Nazgul - the greatest of the nine . . .

EXT. MINAS MORGUL - NIGHT

GANDALF V/0
And Minas Morgul is his lair.

Many view the scene above with the Witch King as his 'powering up' moment. Note that Peter Jackson doesn't have Gandalf fretting about Sauron recovering the Ring, but about the coming battle and the Black Captain.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

Many view the scene above with the Witch King as his 'powering up' moment. Note that Peter Jackson doesn't have Gandalf fretting about Sauron recovering the Ring, but about the coming battle and the Black Captain.

Yes, I saw that scene multiple times. Gandalf doesn't say anything that we already don't know:

'Sauron has yet to reveal his deadliest servant' -- Yes, I believe we are all quite aware that the WiKi is Sauron's deadliest servant, particularly since Balrogs never seemed to take orders well from anyone except Morgoth.

'The one who will lead Mordor's armies in war' -- *Quickly scans WiKi's resume* Ah yes, Mr. WitchKing -- may I call you WiKi? -- it says here you led Sauron's ground forces out of Angmar and destroyed the Dunedain kingdoms of Eriador. Quite impressive! But WiKi, I have a note here regarding your lack of support for Sauron during the Numenorean invasion. You seem quite absent in the whole affair. I believe the note says 'up and ran away'. There are also several botched jobs more recently, like on Weathertop, at Bree, and at the Ford of Bruinen. I am afraid we'll have to start you off in janitorial services, as managerial positions are filled at present. You handle a mace quite well, how are you at a mop and bucket?

'the one they say no living man can kill' -- "They' being Glorfindel, of course, and Peter Jackson obviously did not read the Glorfindel quote thoroughly. It's what happens when one quickly scans a book while laying on a sofa eating a burrito.

'He is the Lord of the Nazgul - the greatest of the nine' -- Yes, I believe that was established early on in both the books and the movie. Nothing new to report.

'He stabbed Frodo on Weathertop' -- Again, PJ's attention to detail is staggering. I suppose that had to be reiterated for anyone who did not see the first movie. Please note also that in the fray Frodo came dangerously close to terminating WiKi with his Westernesse blade (not mentioned in the movie). And Aragorn chased the Nazgul off with a flaming fagot. And no, I am not referring to Legolas, but a fire brand or a bunch of sticks.

'He is the Lord of the Nazgul - the greatest of the nine' -- When in doubt, repeat for added emphasis and heightened...ummm...something or other.

Now -- strictly from the movie, mind you -- where does it say that the WiKi has been taking anabolic steroids and has become greater than a Maia, particularly since 1) Aragorn merely shrugs them off with a burning brand, 2) they get drowned by an Elf-maid who sounds like she has some throat congestion (or has been taking male hormones), 3) is chased off by Gandalf while rescuing Faramir, 4) eventually dies to a shield-maiden and a weak stab to the leg by an injured Hobbit (with no explanation of the efficacy of the blade he wields).

I am merely pointing out inconsistencies here. Y'all can believe what you wish.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Now -- strictly from the movie, mind you -- where does it say that the WiKi has been taking anabolic steroids and has become greater than a Maia

Strictly from the movie, what's a Maia?

particularly since 1) Aragorn merely shrugs them off with a burning brand, 2) they get drowned by an Elf-maid who sounds like she has some throat congestion (or has been taking male hormones), 3) is chased off by Gandalf while rescuing Faramir, 4) eventually dies to a shield-maiden and a weak stab to the leg by an injured Hobbit (with no explanation of the efficacy of the blade he wields).

But the Witch King did have a shiny new helmet, and that's gotta count for something. And the scene that I mentioned, did we read that Gandalf tells Pip that the deadliest servant, "Ain't no big thang..."?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

Strictly from the movie, what's a Maia?

Aint tha' loike them Aztecs, 'cept from Peru? I mispoke, Al. Nowhere is Maia or Maiar mentioned in the movie. But it is interesting that in The Two Towers during the flashback sequence in the 'White Rider' scene there are specific mentions of a supernatural occurence:

'Through fire and water.'

(Flashback: Gandalf is battling the Balrog on a peak)

'From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak, I fought him, the Balrog of Morgoth.'

(Gandalf holds up Glamdring and a flash of lightning strikes it before he plunges the sword into the Balrog. With a final cry, the Balrog falls from the peak and lands, smoking, onto the icy rocks below)

'Until at last, I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside.'

(On top of the mountain, Gandalf crawls a little ways and then collapses)

'Darkness took me. And I strayed out of thought and time.'

(The camera zooms in Gandalf’s eye and enters an amorphous realm of stars and whirling galaxies, ending in a blinding white light)

'Stars wheeled overhead and every day was as long as a life-age of the earth. But it was not the end. I felt life in me again.'

(The camera zooms out from Gandalf’s eye; he is lying, naked and very still, in the snow. His hair has turned white and his wounds are completely healed. He suddenly shudders with a deep gasp as life returns to him)

'I've been sent back until my task is done.'

Who completely healed Gandalf of his wounds (he looked quite beat up before his transformation)? He's been sent back by whom? Even if one discounts the lack of background information regarding Eru/Valar/Maiar, one has to get the implication that God himself sent Gandalf back to finish his task. Otherwise, what can you assume the script is referring to? Again, with such an implication, how then can we go from Gandalf defeating a Balrog 'of Morgorth' (who is this Morgoth, by the way?), being ressurrected and completely healed, breaking Saruman's staff and chasing away Nazgul on the Pelennor, to having his staff shattered, being unhorsed and cowering in fear to the WitchKing? It is bogus and utterly inconsistent. Silly even.

Originally Posted by alatar

But the Witch King did have a shiny new helmet, and that's gotta count for something. And the scene that I mentioned, did we read that Gandalf tells Pip that the deadliest servant, "Ain't no big thang..."?

I don't believe I ever said in this entire conversation that Gandalf treated his confrontation with the WitchKing lightly. But in the movie Gandalf did have a Hobbit with him. So, based on Eowyn and Merry defeating the WitchKing, I believe that Gandalf having Pippin by his side would certainly tip the scales in his favor.

Have I mentioned I have, once again, drank far too much coffee today?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

It's funny, but apparently Jackson had originally intended to mention the fact that the wizards were Maiar. In one of the various books that were published about the making of the films, one of those for FotR is "embellished" with quotes from the film broken out into boxes. One is a quote from Saruman, speaking to Gandalf, in which he says (as I remember it; the book is in storage somewhere), "Are we not both Maiar, members of a most excellent order...?" I don't recall the entire quote, but I do recall that the word is mentioned, and it is a line that never appears anywhere in LotR the book. It plainly came from the script as it stood at the time the book was laid out, and was either never filmed or was deleted.

[Mugwump]

Originally Posted by alatar

From the movie script (sic), which you can find here: ...

I remember the scene a bit differently, although I admit this may not be exactly accurate...

CLOSE UP: PIPPIN ... desperately seeking reassurance.
PIPPIN
But we have the White Wizard. That's got to count for something.

GANDALF looks down at PIPPIN, he says nothing. He takes a puff from his pipe and starts coughing ...

PIPPIN (cont'd) (nervous) Gandalf?

GANDALF stares into the distance as if seeing something in his mind's eye. (*Cough, cough... wheeze...*)

GANDALF V/0
Sauron has yet (*cough, cough*) to reveal his deadliest (*cough, hack*) servant... Big Tobacco! (*Cough, hack, wheeze*)

[Sarumian]

Dealing with Gandalf's mortality we are touching a delicate subject. Tolkien is a Christian and the idea of God embodied in a person, who saves humanity, sharing his destiny with humans is a central point of Christianity. Tolkien as a creator doesn't dare to compete with Bible, but works out a different storyline, where not the Creator (Eru) himself, but rather some angelic beings experience something like this. Gandlf is one of them and while he suffers like a human, he knows what lies beyond death and he originally belongs to the world beyond Middle Earth.

This means his "death" is a sort of voluntary act rather then an inevitable end of being as it is the case for a human being. Even if his body had been tired and broken he could have staying alive until he decides 'that's it, I cant endure this anymore'. So, as I have already written, he couldn't be afraid of death, because death for him means return to Valinor.

I don't think we should underestimate WiKi. He was a serious chalenge for Gandalf. I believe Sauron could have made an idea of Gandalf the White's power after their personal encounter in the TT, when reserected wizard diverted the Dark Lord's attention from Frodo to himself, while he "sat in a high place and strove with the Dark Tower". So Sauron could prepare his best servant to fight against the White Wizard and supply him with a perilous enchanted weapon. What Wiki was showing to Gandalf was that he was no more afraid of fire, Gandalf's magic tool, ut was ready to use it himself. However, it couldn't be an easy task to get rid of Gandaf. I belive that the power and high spirit of Wiki's army made him stronger, as he belived, he could make an incredible pressure on Gandalf's state of mind, allowing others to kill the wizard. Well it didn't mean as well tht Gandalf was an easy tagert.