Butturbur's Worst Customers

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Forgive me for trying to out-pedant the resident pedant, but - if Aragorn's words are supposed to be in the Instantaneous Present, they can't refer to Black Riders, as these were nowhere near Bree and/or Andrath/Amrath at the time of his speaking (being unhorsed and uncloaked after the Incident at Bruinen Ford, and their present whereabouts unknown). And if he was using the Timeless Present, he can't be referring to Black Riders either, as they weren't habitually to be found within a day's march of Bree. (Also, there's the bit about "...if he [=the 'one fat man', Butterbur] were not guarded ceaselessly", which implies a constant threat.)

Always interesting to meet another pedant!

The relevant point--for me--about Aragorn's words is that they are performative. He is addressing his rival Boromir and providing a correction to Boromir's rather arrogant claims for Gondor's singular status as sole protector of the realm. He is speaking of his generations of heirs of Valandil. It is heightened speech.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

So I take it you're suggesting that Andrath/Amrath wasn't just a ruined town chosen by the Nazgûl as a convenient basis camp, but maybe a permanent settlement populated by 'servants of the Enemy' (possibly refugees from Angmar or remnants of the Witch-King's army who settled there after the wars?) - kind of a 'home away from home' for the Nazgûl, where the Witch-King could count on the support of his former followers or their descendants? Now that's a possibility - and it would make Aragorn's speech one of those instances where an idea from the early drafts is preserved in the final narrative with its original context either changed beyond recognition or lost altogether in the revision, but still implied if not explicitly mentioned. If so, good point!

I was responding to Legate's comment above

Originally Posted by Legate

We don't know anything about another "permanent settlement of wraiths" close to Bree.

and wished to point out that there was a Nazgul camp close to Bree in the earlier drafts. It's particulars we don't know (unless they are given in UT, which I don't have here to check). But Tolkien did.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Here's a thought. The Watcher, I believe, came to its pool by
traveling up the Sirannon. Why not have similar or some other
krakenish creaures or , say,walking catfish on steroids
swimming from the ocean up the Brandywine? If Breelanders fish
go boating on the Brandywine they might have been terrorized by such.

And it could explain the disappearance of Bilbo's parents. A watching
hobbit from a distance sees Bungo go into the river and then what
looks like a hand or arm grasp Belladonna Took and pull her in.
Hmmm.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Here's a thought. The Watcher, I believe, came to its pool by
traveling up the Sirannon. Why not have similar or some other
krakenish creaures or , say,walking catfish on steroids
swimming from the ocean up the Brandywine? If Breelanders fish
go boating on the Brandywine they might have been terrorized by such.

And it could explain the disappearance of Bilbo's parents. A watching
hobbit from a distance sees Bungo go into the river and then what
looks like a hand or arm grasp Belladonna Took and pull her in.
Hmmm.

You'd think the sharp-eyed Hobbits would have noted the presence of such creatures, if they were in the area. At least, like the 'tree man' seen by Sam's cousin, they'd have made their way into local rumours and fireside tales.
Also, there was a passing reference in UT of the Brandywine having 'elvish' qualities, which would seem to give the river an anti-evil aura. No idea if T. stuck to that idea though.
And Bilbo's parents didn't drown, did they? That was Frodo's parents Drogo Baggins and Primula Brandybuck.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

And Bilbo's parents didn't drown, did they? That was Frodo's parents Drogo Baggins and Primula Brandybuck.

Yep! You're correct.

But evil water creatures could explain a subconscious
hobbit fear of water, eh?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

But evil water creatures could explain a subconscious hobbit fear of water, eh?

I guess that would do it. Especially if they're amphibious and capable of 'marching' to Bree.

[Sarumian]

As a good narrator, Tolkien usually tells us only a part of the things he "knows" about Middle Earth. It might be that Aragorn's words initially referred to Andrath, but as that part of the story was abandoned, the most suitable explanation of the dwellings of

foes that would freeze his heart

seems to be Barrow Downs. When he says:

foes that would freeze his heart, or lay his little town in ruin

'or' doesn't need to mean 'and', so the latter can be ruffians. It is also possible that Wights can travel (as they once came to Downs) and that, on the other hand, rangers can withstand their 'chill' and keep them at bay. After all, Aragorn was able to withstand even the terror of five Nazgul in the night at Weathertop.

[Galadriel55]

The only thing that I want to say is that there might be more small-scale evil or just wild things hiding in the emptiness around the Shire and Bree than the 4 hobbits encountered. This leaves it open to imagination and makes it inclusive.

[Joat1513]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

As a good narrator, Tolkien usually tells us only a part of the things he "knows" about Middle Earth. It might be that Aragorn's words initially referred to Andrath, but as that part of the story was abandoned, the most suitable explanation of the dwellings of



seems to be Barrow Downs. When he says:



'or' doesn't need to mean 'and', so the latter can be ruffians. It is also possible that Wights can travel (as they once came to Downs) and that, on the other hand, rangers can withstand their 'chill' and keep them at bay. After all, Aragorn was able to withstand even the terror of five Nazgul in the night at Weathertop.

I sincerely doubt the threat Aragorn had mentioned referred to the Barrow Wights. While it is entirely unclear to what lengths Barrow Wights could travel or otherwise leave their "Barrow", one does seem to leave to ensnare Frodo & Co, they require the safety of their barrows for continual existence. This implies that they can't or wouldn't leave their barrows for any length of time. Especially as they cannot survive the daylight in which they'd simply wither away. So to travel to Bree & back would seem far too unlikely for them IF they could even travel.

You inferred that they could travel because hey, they got down to the downs somehow right..... Except the Barrow Wights only appeared in the downs directly by the Witch King of Angmar's magic. The Witch King is responsible for putting the Barrow Wight's spirits there. So they didn't necessarily have to travel anywhere. While they certainly seem capable of "freezing" Butterbur's heart..... I definitely have a hard time seeing them "sack" a whole town.

So I have a hard time thinking Aragorn meant the Barrow Wights as a day's march from Bree.