Butturbur's Worst Customers

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I'm inclined to interpret Aragorn's comment as the Instaneous present, meaning at the time Aragorn speaks, rather than the Timeless present. In fact, I might even say that Aragron's speech partakes of a performative declaration, which, according to Quirk and Greenbaum's A University Grammar of English, is expressed in the simple present Instaneous. But you don't have to take my word for it; I'm just the resident pedant here.

Forgive me for trying to out-pedant the resident pedant, but - if Aragorn's words are supposed to be in the Instantaneous Present, they can't refer to Black Riders, as these were nowhere near Bree and/or Andrath/Amrath at the time of his speaking (being unhorsed and uncloaked after the Incident at Bruinen Ford, and their present whereabouts unknown). And if he was using the Timeless Present, he can't be referring to Black Riders either, as they weren't habitually to be found within a day's march of Bree. (Also, there's the bit about "...if he [=the 'one fat man', Butterbur] were not guarded ceaselessly", which implies a constant threat.)
So I take it you're suggesting that Andrath/Amrath wasn't just a ruined town chosen by the Nazgûl as a convenient basis camp, but maybe a permanent settlement populated by 'servants of the Enemy' (possibly refugees from Angmar or remnants of the Witch-King's army who settled there after the wars?) - kind of a 'home away from home' for the Nazgûl, where the Witch-King could count on the support of his former followers or their descendants? Now that's a possibility - and it would make Aragorn's speech one of those instances where an idea from the early drafts is preserved in the final narrative with its original context either changed beyond recognition or lost altogether in the revision, but still implied if not explicitly mentioned. If so, good point!

[Rumil]

Interesting stuff!

Andrath - is it known to be/have been an actual settlement rather than some sort of location/geographical feature?

I always had the vague impression that it was the name of the defile or pass between the Barrow Downs and South Downs (from UT), but would be delighted to be proved wrong!

As to the name; 'rath' is path, way or road, right? Like Rath Dinen. What does the 'And' mean (or the 'Am' in the alternative Amrath)? The Greek andros to make 'man-path' or 'Men's Road' would fit nicely I think but not sure JRRT used much Greek.

Meanwhile on Mewlips - they seem to me to be Marsh-dwellers from the illustrations and talk of bogs in the poem, so Midgewater is my suspect Mewlip-den. Though conceivably Swanfleet or even the Gladden Fields? If so, are the Mewlips really Hobbit folk-memories of Gollum??

Somewhere after leaving Bree Aragorn mentions 'spies' more formidable than Bill Ferny and that the beasts and bird can't be trusted iirc.

'Freeze his heart' might well be metaphorical. For example a band of raiding goblins, trolls or even brigands could happily commit such atrocities upon the peaceful folk of Bree such that Butterbur's heart would be 'frozen' by their (non-supernatural) savagery. What think ye?

I do like the spotting of 'dark things in the woods' - could be an owl or a deer or a wolf or.... a....a...who knows?

Maybe Aragorn & co. have the authority to prevent the wights wandering from the Downs, in the same way that A has authority to use the Palantir, due to the Dunedain nature of the barrows at least (OK a whole different kettle of fissssshhh !). The dark shapes being wights or allied spirits transgressing the 'bounds' put about their land in the absence of the Rangers. (He says, shamelessly making stuff up ).

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Forgive me for trying to out-pedant the resident pedant, but - if Aragorn's words are supposed to be in the Instantaneous Present, they can't refer to Black Riders, as these were nowhere near Bree and/or Andrath/Amrath at the time of his speaking (being unhorsed and uncloaked after the Incident at Bruinen Ford, and their present whereabouts unknown). And if he was using the Timeless Present, he can't be referring to Black Riders either, as they weren't habitually to be found within a day's march of Bree. (Also, there's the bit about "...if he [=the 'one fat man', Butterbur] were not guarded ceaselessly", which implies a constant threat.)

In any case the reference seems to be something resembling a more or less permanent threat to Bree, so not the Black Riders.

Probably parsing things too much here, but I suppose it could be noteworthy that Butterbur sees those dark figures in the woods once the Rangers leave the area (to help out Aragorn). Still hard to say whether there is something real there, or just the inflamed superstitions given all the incidents of the preceding period...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Forgive me for trying to out-pedant the resident pedant, but - if Aragorn's words are supposed to be in the Instantaneous Present, they can't refer to Black Riders, as these were nowhere near Bree and/or Andrath/Amrath at the time of his speaking (being unhorsed and uncloaked after the Incident at Bruinen Ford, and their present whereabouts unknown). And if he was using the Timeless Present, he can't be referring to Black Riders either, as they weren't habitually to be found within a day's march of Bree. (Also, there's the bit about "...if he [=the 'one fat man', Butterbur] were not guarded ceaselessly", which implies a constant threat.)

Always interesting to meet another pedant!

The relevant point--for me--about Aragorn's words is that they are performative. He is addressing his rival Boromir and providing a correction to Boromir's rather arrogant claims for Gondor's singular status as sole protector of the realm. He is speaking of his generations of heirs of Valandil. It is heightened speech.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

So I take it you're suggesting that Andrath/Amrath wasn't just a ruined town chosen by the Nazgûl as a convenient basis camp, but maybe a permanent settlement populated by 'servants of the Enemy' (possibly refugees from Angmar or remnants of the Witch-King's army who settled there after the wars?) - kind of a 'home away from home' for the Nazgûl, where the Witch-King could count on the support of his former followers or their descendants? Now that's a possibility - and it would make Aragorn's speech one of those instances where an idea from the early drafts is preserved in the final narrative with its original context either changed beyond recognition or lost altogether in the revision, but still implied if not explicitly mentioned. If so, good point!

I was responding to Legate's comment above

Originally Posted by Legate

We don't know anything about another "permanent settlement of wraiths" close to Bree.

and wished to point out that there was a Nazgul camp close to Bree in the earlier drafts. It's particulars we don't know (unless they are given in UT, which I don't have here to check). But Tolkien did.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Here's a thought. The Watcher, I believe, came to its pool by
traveling up the Sirannon. Why not have similar or some other
krakenish creaures or , say,walking catfish on steroids
swimming from the ocean up the Brandywine? If Breelanders fish
go boating on the Brandywine they might have been terrorized by such.

And it could explain the disappearance of Bilbo's parents. A watching
hobbit from a distance sees Bungo go into the river and then what
looks like a hand or arm grasp Belladonna Took and pull her in.
Hmmm.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Here's a thought. The Watcher, I believe, came to its pool by
traveling up the Sirannon. Why not have similar or some other
krakenish creaures or , say,walking catfish on steroids
swimming from the ocean up the Brandywine? If Breelanders fish
go boating on the Brandywine they might have been terrorized by such.

And it could explain the disappearance of Bilbo's parents. A watching
hobbit from a distance sees Bungo go into the river and then what
looks like a hand or arm grasp Belladonna Took and pull her in.
Hmmm.

You'd think the sharp-eyed Hobbits would have noted the presence of such creatures, if they were in the area. At least, like the 'tree man' seen by Sam's cousin, they'd have made their way into local rumours and fireside tales.
Also, there was a passing reference in UT of the Brandywine having 'elvish' qualities, which would seem to give the river an anti-evil aura. No idea if T. stuck to that idea though.
And Bilbo's parents didn't drown, did they? That was Frodo's parents Drogo Baggins and Primula Brandybuck.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

And Bilbo's parents didn't drown, did they? That was Frodo's parents Drogo Baggins and Primula Brandybuck.

Yep! You're correct.

But evil water creatures could explain a subconscious
hobbit fear of water, eh?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

But evil water creatures could explain a subconscious hobbit fear of water, eh?

I guess that would do it. Especially if they're amphibious and capable of 'marching' to Bree.

[Sarumian]

As a good narrator, Tolkien usually tells us only a part of the things he "knows" about Middle Earth. It might be that Aragorn's words initially referred to Andrath, but as that part of the story was abandoned, the most suitable explanation of the dwellings of

foes that would freeze his heart

seems to be Barrow Downs. When he says:

foes that would freeze his heart, or lay his little town in ruin

'or' doesn't need to mean 'and', so the latter can be ruffians. It is also possible that Wights can travel (as they once came to Downs) and that, on the other hand, rangers can withstand their 'chill' and keep them at bay. After all, Aragorn was able to withstand even the terror of five Nazgul in the night at Weathertop.