Butturbur's Worst Customers

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I assume the Rangers were simply wandering all over the former Arnor, and I see no reason to change this idea. Anyway, the thing about Fornost seems to me that it is something different. I mean: there is nobody to protect there, but it's the place of "pilgrimage" to remember the forgotten times when Arnor was still a powerful kingdom. Just like Weathertop. The Rangers also go there, as Aragorn says, and he has this half-sighing tone of "it used to be a mighty tower, now it's a pile of rock".

And as for Fornost, the way Gandalf says it:

"Up away by Deadmen's Dike?" said Butterbur, looking even more dubious. "That's haunted land, they say. None but a robber would go there."
"The Rangers go there," said Gandalf. "Deadmen's Dike, you say. So it has been called for long years; but its right name, Barliman, is Fornost Erain, Norbury of the Kings."

It always seemed to me that the meaning is, in other words: "You are a superstitious simpleton, Butterbur, you know nothing about the noble history, there is nothing scary about Fornost, it is a "holy place" of the Dúnedain, because their King had once dwelt there, and only because it's been destroyed by the Witch-King and has been deserted for a long time, it has the reputation of an "old haunted house" in your eyes."

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

It always seemed to me that the meaning is, in other words: "You are a superstitious simpleton, Butterbur, you know nothing about the noble history, there is nothing scary about Fornost, it is a "holy place" of the Dúnedain, because their King had once dwelt there, and only because it's been destroyed by the Witch-King and has been deserted for a long time, it has the reputation of an "old haunted house" in your eyes."

Or one could interpret this slightly differently, given when Gandalf makes his statements. Perhaps this is Gandalf's way of saying that the King who has returned aims to clean things up, pointing also to the distant past when the Dunedain did live up there:

And many folk used to dwell away north, a hundred miles or more from here, at the far end of the Greenway: on the North Downs or by Lake Evendim.

which is followed by Butterbur's claim that the area is Deadmen's Dike and that it is haunted. Gandalf follows this with:

Deadmen's Dike, you say. So it has been called for long years; but its right name, Barliman, is Fornost Erain, Norbury of the Kings. And the King will come there again one day; and then you'll have some fair folk riding through.

which could be interpreted as meaning that Gandalf expects things to change for the better, not necessarily that there is no threat at all to the north. Slightly earlier, Butterbur says

...and the Rangers have all gone away, folk tell me. I don't think we rightly understood till now what they did for us. For there's been worse than robbers about. Wolves were howling round the fences last winter. And there's dark shapes in the woods, dreadful things that it makes the blood run cold to think of.

More superstition from Butterbur?? Maybe, but one could argue that the departure of the Rangers has allowed the robbers who came up the Greenway to flourish,

hiding in the woods beyond Archet, and out in the wilds north-away.

Whether the reference to "dark shapes in the woods" is real, or just the imaginings of Butterbur, I don't know. And whether the Rangers are only going to Deadmen's Dike for the purposes of a pilgrimage, it is hard to say, but I don't see the threat to Bree and the Shire has strictly coming from one direction.

[Bêthberry]

Great thread title, Inziladun! And very interesting conjectures here from everyone.

To be honest, I have a bit of a different idea about Aragorn's comments. I've never thought of them as anything but a reference to the Black Riders. I could be wrong, but it strikes me that they are the closest foes Aragorn has most recently faced and might possibly be upper-most in his mind.

After all, at the Prancing Pony he said to Frodo:

Originally Posted by Aragorn, chapter 'Strider'

'Now, don't mistake me,!' he cried, as Frodo rose from his seat, and Sam jumped up with a scowl. 'I shall take more care of the secret than you do. And care is needed!' He leaned forward and looked at them. 'Watch every shadow!' he said in a low voice. 'Black horsemen have passed trhough Bree. On Monday one came down the Greenway, the say; and another appeared later, coming up the Greenway from the south.'

Then later as Butterbur produces Gandalf's letter for Frodo, he says,

Originally Posted by Butterbur, chapter 'Strider'

'Leaving the letter aside, I promised Gandalf no less. Barley, he says to me, this friend of mine from the Shire, he maybe coming out this way before long, him and another. He'll be calling himself Underhill. Mind that! But you need ask no questions. And if I'm not with him, he may be in trouble, and he may need help. Do whatever you can for him, and I'll be grateful, he says. And here you are, and trouble is not far off, seemingly.'

'What do you mean?' asked Frodo.

'These black men,' said the landlord lowering his voice. 'They're looking for Baggins, and if they mean well, then I'm a hobbit. It was on Monday, and all the dogs were yammering and the geese screaming. Uncanny, I called it. Nob, he came and told me that two black men were at the door asking for a hobbit called Baggins. Nob's hair was all stood on end. I bid the black fellows be off, and slammed the door on them; but they've been asking the same question all the way to Archet, I heard.

. . .

'What are all these queer goings on? What are these black men after, and where do they come fron, I'd like to know?'

'I'm sorrry I can't explain it all,' answered Frodo. . . . These Black Riders: I am not sure, but I think they come from---'

'They come from Mordor,' said Strider in a low voice. 'From Mordor, Barliman, if that means anything to you.'

'Save us!' cried Mr. Butterbur turning pale; the name was evidently known to him. 'That is the worst news that has come to Bree in my time.'

Aragorn's words are general enough at the Council of Elrond, yet his reference to "the one fat man" suggests the Innkeeper of the Prancing Pony, who has shown us (in passages I haven't quoted) how little he understands or appreciates Strider. I could be wrong, of course, but it seems to me that no fell creature of the Barrow Downs nor troll of the wilds could strike the uncanny fear into the hearts of men (and hobbits) that the Black Riders do; nor could they be the foes which freeze Butterbur 's heart.

[CSteefel]

One argument against this last interpretation is that in fact the Rangers were unable to keep the Black Riders from overrunning Bree. The Witch King swept the Rangers away at Tharbad, and then a few days later (after invading the Shire), swept through Bree...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Aragorn's words are general enough at the Council of Elrond, yet his reference to "the one fat man" suggests the Innkeeper of the Prancing Pony, who has shown us (in passages I haven't quoted) how little he understands or appreciates Strider. I could be wrong, of course, but it seems to me that no fell creature of the Barrow Downs nor troll of the wilds could strike the uncanny fear into the hearts of men (and hobbits) that the Black Riders do; nor could they be the foes which freeze Butterbur 's heart.

I of course also don't think that a troll could strike the fear into the hearts of men - though I think the BWs could pretty well, what makes you think they would not? People are scared only by tales about the hills they live in, and all this cold grasping hearts of the hobbits... well, surely you can read for yourself and see what impression it makes.
Anyway, I certainly don't think that Aragorn would be speaking about Black Riders on the Council, because if he says:

"Strider" I am to one fat man who lives within a day's march of foes that would freeze his heart or lay his little town in ruin, if he were not guarded ceaselessly.

That certainly does not refer to the Black Riders. The "foes" are there obviously permanently (see the words used: "lives" and "ceaselessly", that would not be used for riders who have been around there for a few days). It actually, after seeing this, really makes me think more and more of the Barrow-Wights. Although like I said before, it just somehow does not go well with the impression I have of them being the "homely folk" staying in their tombs and haunting passing visitors. Also I already expressed my doubts when it comes to the power of the Rangers to stop them from invading civilised lands, if they chose to.

Originally Posted by CSteefel

One argument against this last interpretation is that in fact the Rangers were unable to keep the Black Riders from overrunning Bree. The Witch King swept the Rangers away at Tharbad, and then a few days later (after invading the Shire), swept through Bree...

A slight note (I don't want to be picky, but since you said it already for the second time ): it was at Sarn Ford, not at Tharbad. I know that in the rather unexplored wilderness south of Bree one really hardly cares, but these two places are some three days ride from each other and are something completely different. (Sarn Ford were the southern borders of the Shire, that was why the Rangers were there.)

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I of course also don't think that a troll could strike the fear into the hearts of men - though I think the BWs could pretty well, what makes you think they would not? People are scared only by tales about the hills they live in, and all this cold grasping hearts of the hobbits... well, surely you can read for yourself and see what impression it makes.

My sentence was a comparison, that the uncanny fear of the Black Riders was greater than any fear of the Barrow Wights (see the bolding I've added here); I didn't say that the wights could not inspire fear. It's a matter of degree.

Originally Posted by Legate

Anyway, I certainly don't think that Aragorn would be speaking about Black Riders on the Council, because if he says:

Quote:
"Strider" I am to one fat man who lives within a day's march of foes that would freeze his heart or lay his little town in ruin, if he were not guarded ceaselessly.

That certainly does not refer to the Black Riders. The "foes" are there obviously permanently (see the words used: "lives" and "ceaselessly", that would not be used for riders who have been around there for a few days).

The verb "lives" refers to "one fat man who lives", not to the foes. I think--and of course anyone is free to disagree--that Aragorn is here describing his life to Boromir and staking his claim as heir to Isildur. He speaks generally of his life, although the recent events at the Prancing Pony--where Butterbur clearly was greatly disturbed by news of the Riders--have influenced his thoughts. He is pointing out that he has had a harder time of it than Boromir in Gondor, receiving little thanks--and we've just seen how poorly Butterbur thinks of Strider.

Originally Posted by Legate

It actually, after seeing this, really makes me think more and more of the Barrow-Wights. Although like I said before, it just somehow does not go well with the impression I have of them being the "homely folk" staying in their tombs and haunting passing visitors. Also I already expressed my doubts when it comes to the power of the Rangers to stop them from invading civilised lands, if they chose to.

I too have a similar sense that the wights don't travel far beyond their barrows. But it's Tom who can control the wights, not Aragorn.

[Rumil]

Mewlips??

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

It actually, after seeing this, really makes me think more and more of the Barrow-Wights.

A slight note (I don't want to be picky, but since you said it already for the second time ): it was at Sarn Ford, not at Tharbad. I know that in the rather unexplored wilderness south of Bree one really hardly cares, but these two places are some three days ride from each other and are something completely different. (Sarn Ford were the southern borders of the Shire, that was why the Rangers were there.)

Right about Sarn Ford--I have been reading too much in the Unfinished Tales recently, where Tharbad is discussed quite a bit.

Otherwise, one interpretation is that the foes that would freeze one's heart, or overrun the town, are two separate groups. Perhaps the Wights will freeze one's heart, but being immobile, are not really a threat to Bree. One day's ride here makes sense for the Barrow Downs. And those who would overrun Bree are the ruffians coming up from the south...

But I still wonder about those dark figures in the woods that Butterbur mentions...

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Perhaps the Wights will freeze one's heart, but being immobile, are not really a threat to Bree.

Just because Barrow-Wights don't move around much, doesn't mean that they aren't immobile. Don't you remember in the Adventures of Tom Bombadil where there is a Barrow-Wight in his wardrobe? It means that they can, and do sometimes move around elsewhere. Which makes them a likely candidate for those dark shapes in the forest that Butterbur spoke of. Not saying that they are in fact what those shapes were.

As was stated before, there are many different creatures in ME, it could have been anyone of them. Aren't there some inhabitants of the Ice Bay of Forochel, or however it's called? They might be coming down to Bree. Also, I seem to recall there being spirits living all over Eriador. Weren't there many spirits sorts living there because of the Witch King?