Rock Bands and Tolkien (Nightwish and more)

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

If bands want to be really cool then they reference someone like JG Ballard or Nabokov or Illuminatus!, not Tolkien, because Tolkien still isn't really what you'd call 'cool' - and that's part of the appeal for many of us

Hmmm...but I think Tolkien transcends coolness/noncoolness in many instances. After all, when Lord of the Rings references appear in lyrics by such Rock Godz as Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath (the song 'Wizard' was inspired by Gandalf, according to the semi-comotose Ozzy Osbourne, and Geezer Butler is an ardent LotR fan), then Tolkien acquires a patina of legitimacy, at least among the 'glitterati' (in the glitter rock sense), but not so the 'literati' (in the constipated academic sense) -- that is where one finds the clearest condemnations of Tolkien.

But then, I think that literary, classical music and art references were de rigeur in the late 60's/early 70's, particularly with English bands. In addition to Led Zep and Sabbath (who also reference HP Lovecraft's 'Beyond the Wall of Sleep'), we have Pink Floyd's 'The Piper at the Gates of Dawn' (from a chapter title in Grahame's 'Wind in the Willows'), Jethro Tull quoting Robert Burns as well as lifting Bach's 'Bouree', King Crimson describing Rembrandt's 'The Night Watch' in song, Emerson, Lake and Palmer revising Mussorgsky's 'Pictures at an Exhibition', and the Beatles citing or referring to Kahil Gibran, Lewis Carroll, Edgar Allan Poe and snippets of King Lear.

This often is derided as pomposity and pretension by critics, but I think it was genuine love of the source material by the bands, and the music plays on long after the pens lie stiff and cold in the critic's rigor-mortised hands. Later on we have The Police referring to Nabokov, The Waterboys doing an absolutely enchanting version of WB Yeats' 'The Stolen Child' and REM rattling off a host of cultural and literary references in 'It's the End of the World as We Know It'.

So, cool or not cool? It's in the eye (or in this case, the ear) of the beholder. But I think the majority of Tolkienites could give a rat's hairy patoot about critics in any case.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

(the song 'Wizard' was inspired by Gandalf, according to the semi-comotose Ozzy Osbourne, and Geezer Butler is an ardent LotR fan)

Haha, I was right!

Sorry, erm... what were we talking about?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Hmmm...but I think Tolkien transcends coolness/noncoolness in many instances. After all, when Lord of the Rings references appear in lyrics by such Rock Godz as Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath (the song 'Wizard' was inspired by Gandalf, according to the semi-comotose Ozzy Osbourne, and Geezer Butler is an ardent LotR fan), then Tolkien acquires a patina of legitimacy, at least among the 'glitterati' (in the glitter rock sense), but not so the 'literati' (in the constipated academic sense) -- that is where one finds the clearest condemnations of Tolkien.

But then, I think that literary, classical music and art references were de rigeur in the late 60's/early 70's, particularly with English bands. In addition to Led Zep and Sabbath (who also reference HP Lovecraft's 'Beyond the Wall of Sleep'), we have Pink Floyd's 'The Piper at the Gates of Dawn' (from a chapter title in Grahame's 'Wind in the Willows'), Jethro Tull quoting Robert Burns as well as lifting Bach's 'Bouree', King Crimson describing Rembrandt's 'The Night Watch' in song, Emerson, Lake and Palmer revising Mussorgsky's 'Pictures at an Exhibition', and the Beatles citing or referring to Kahil Gibran, Lewis Carroll, Edgar Allan Poe and snippets of King Lear.

This often is derided as pomposity and pretension by critics, but I think it was genuine love of the source material by the bands, and the music plays on long after the pens lie stiff and cold in the critic's rigor-mortised hands. Later on we have The Police referring to Nabokov, The Waterboys doing an absolutely enchanting version of WB Yeats' 'The Stolen Child' and REM rattling off a host of cultural and literary references in 'It's the End of the World as We Know It'.

So, cool or not cool? It's in the eye (or in this case, the ear) of the beholder. But I think the majority of Tolkienites could give a rat's hairy patoot about critics in any case.

I think Tolkien references are cool to those of us who enjoy what the whippersnappers now term 'dad rock' (the cheeky rascals), and to those of us of a more metal inclination. But will they ever be cool to the metrosexual set who care for nothing more than slight and obscure references to modernism in their song lyrics - if they deign to listen to songs at all

There's still a distinct whiff of patchouli, jazz cigarettes and dads with unkempt beards who like looking at motorbikes about Tolkien references in songs. Which is good

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I think Tolkien references are cool to those of us who enjoy what the whippersnappers now term 'dad rock' (the cheeky rascals), and to those of us of a more metal inclination. But will they ever be cool to the metrosexual set who care for nothing more than slight and obscure references to modernism in their song lyrics - if they deign to listen to songs at all

There's still a distinct whiff of patchouli, jazz cigarettes and dads with unkempt beards who like looking at motorbikes about Tolkien references in songs. Which is good

*Sighs*

You're probably right, Lal.

Garn, is that another gray hair?

I like your 'metrosexual' analogy, and I would suggest that that crowd most likely does not read 'books', as they are a passe' medium. If it cannot be typed in acronyms and monosyllables on a 3 inch keyboard, it is not worth the exertion. There is a lot of 'twit' in 'twitter', after all.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

*Sighs*

You're probably right, Lal.

Garn, is that another gray hair?

I like your 'metrosexual' analogy, and I would suggest that that crowd most likely does not read 'books', as they are a passe' medium. If it cannot be typed in acronyms and monosyllables on a 3 inch keyboard, it is not worth the exertion. There is a lot of 'twit' in 'twitter', after all.

I think to some books are merely handy things from which to steal film plots.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I think to some books are merely handy things from which to steal film plots.

Not only that, in talking to the sweet old lady at my favorite used book store, I found out that a large amount of her business is from people who are accessorizing. They buy batches of books for their bindings, so that the colors match their room setting. Forget about the contents of the books, madame, it's the visual ambiance they provide tossed ever so casually on the coffee table!

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Not only that, in talking to the sweet old lady at my favorite used book store, I found out that a large amount of her business is from people who are accessorizing. They buy batches of books for their bindings, so that the colors match their room setting. Forget about the contents of the books, madame, it's the visual ambiance they provide tossed ever so casually on the coffee table!

The opposite of our house then, a huge dusty mess of cobwebs hanging from the mountains of mismatched books stacked up everywhere like something from Gormenghast...

...that could be a Tolkien influenced song, Misty Mountain Of Books Hop...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I renamed this thread at The Might's request to reflect the more general nature of musical discussion into which it has evolved.

I'm away from home at the moment; when I'm back, I'll give more information on the book Music in Middle-earth. Interestingly, to pick up on Eomer's reference, the chapter on Black Metal and Tolkien's influence features the Burzum project as one important element.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

The opposite of our house then, a huge dusty mess of cobwebs hanging from the mountains of mismatched books stacked up everywhere like something from Gormenghast...

...that could be a Tolkien influenced song, Misty Mountain Of Books Hop...

Well you know that Led Zepplin already has a song called Misty Mountain Hop. There is also The Battle of Evermore which is just full of Tolkien references, that's one of the reasons why it's my second favourite song. My first is about some bloke who smashes people on the head with a silver hammer. . .