Time to fix Gandalf versus the Witchking

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by obloquy

It's fine for the movie because the movie establishes its own rules and hierarchy. Gandalf is not an incarnate demigod, while the Witch-King has to be elevated to fill Sauron's role as Chief Villain...

...He's just a cranky old wizard who is sometimes impressive, but clearly not up to dealing with the WK.

"Gandalf...Gandalf the Gray...yes, that is what they used to call me. I am Gandalf the White."

No, Obloquoy, I will have to disagree with you on this one. PJ lifts an entire sequence from Tolkien when Gandalf flashes back with a vivid description of his resurrection after he had defeated the Balrog. The insinuation is that Gandalf is sent back from the dead to finish his mission. It would make little sense to have Gandalf die once more -- wouldn't he just be sent right back again? Obviously someone (who in the film is nameless) does not want Gandalf to die. And after he defeated a balrog!

Later, Gandalf the White is seen chasing off a whole herd of Nazgul in order to rescue Faramir. In this context, the scene where Gandalf's staff is broken makes absolutely no sense, particularly since Gandalf the White had only recently broken Saruman's staff (which would, I believe, show plainly that Gandalf's power has increased exponentially as well).

So let's see here, the movies show:

1. Gandalf defeating the Balrog
2. Gandalf being resurrected
3. Gandalf claiming Saruman's 'White' title
4. Gandalf breaking Saruman's staff (after being completely unaffected by a huge fireball flung by Saruman, mind you)
5. Gandalf easily chasing away several Nazgul with a magic blast of white light

The plotting is uneven and in places downright sloppy. It is Peter Jackson merely going for cheap thrills and effects rather than offering a cohesive and unambiguous plot.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

"Gandalf...Gandalf the Gray...yes, that is what they used to call me. I am Gandalf the White."

No, Obloquoy, I will have to disagree with you on this one. PJ lifts an entire sequence from Tolkien when Gandalf flashes back with a vivid description of his resurrection after he had defeated the Balrog. The insinuation is that Gandalf is sent back from the dead to finish his mission. It would make little sense to have Gandalf die once more -- wouldn't he just be sent right back again? Obviously someone (who in the film is nameless) does not want Gandalf to die. And after he defeated a balrog!

Later, Gandalf the White is seen chasing off a whole herd of Nazgul in order to rescue Faramir. In this context, the scene where Gandalf's staff is broken makes absolutely no sense, particularly since Gandalf the White had only recently broken Saruman's staff (which would, I believe, show plainly that Gandalf's power has increased exponentially as well).

So let's see here, the movies show:

1. Gandalf defeating the Balrog
2. Gandalf being resurrected
3. Gandalf claiming Saruman's 'White' title
4. Gandalf breaking Saruman's staff (after being completely unaffected by a huge fireball flung by Saruman, mind you)
5. Gandalf easily chasing away several Nazgul with a magic blast of white light

The plotting is uneven and in places downright sloppy. It is Peter Jackson merely going for cheap thrills and effects rather than offering a cohesive and unambiguous plot.

What does this have to do with Gandalf's nature as a Maia?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by obloquy

What does this have to do with Gandalf's nature as a Maia?

Nothing. But if Gandalf is not a Maia in the film, he's certainly an Aztec as far as semi-divine manifestations go . Although the words 'Maia'/ 'Maiar' /'Maiaric are not used in the movies, after Gandalf's go with the Balrog and his sudden transformation in 'The White' there is the distinct impression that he is immortal and exponentially more powerful (the movie data is in my previous post); in contrast, there really is no comparative explanation that I can remember regarding the WiKi's sudden transformation to all-powerful demi-god invested with all the powers of Sauron in the movie.

Jackson's use of the famous WiKi line "No man can kill me" would no longer apply to resurrected Gandalf, who is no longer mortal nor a man in the strictest sense, anymore than Jesus Christ would be considered mortal man after his resurrection.

Jackson's script directly refers to other powers reviving Gandalf and thus an achievement of immortality:

"....Until at last, I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside. Darkness took me. And I strayed out of thought and time. Stars wheeled overhead and each day was as long as a life age of the earth. But it was not the end. I felt life in me again. I've been sent back until my task is done. "

The emphasized line "I've been sent back until my task is done" is a direct reference to heavenly intervention (and Gandalf taking Frodo on the last ship merely bolsters the inference of immortality). Therefore, your insinuation that "[Gandalf is] just a cranky old wizard who is sometimes impressive, but clearly not up to dealing with the WK..." is not the perception Jackson portrays after Gandalf's defeat of the Balrog.

Again, the scripting is uneven and relies on gimmickery and visual appeal over substance and continuity. It's much like how PJ dragged Faramir through the dirt for several agonizing sequences before finally showing the character's nobility. The utterly absurd segment where Frodo shows a flying Nazgul the Ring and Faramir finally decides to set the hobbits free is part and parcel of PJ's inconsistency as he bounces from stunning visual vignettes and rebounds to attempt to tell the story.

In fact, I think the scene where Frodo shows the Nazgul the Ring in Osgiliath is even more disconcerting than the WiKi breaking Gandalf's staff. Logic would dictate that the Nazgul, upon seeing a hobbit with the Ring, would not simply fly away, but would call his cohorts and all the collected armies of Mordor to that one point. Frodo would not have even made it into Mordor if logic, even inconsistent movie pretzel logic, prevailed.

Bah, I've drank too much coffee.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

In fact, I think the scene where Frodo shows the Nazgul the Ring in Osgiliath is even more disconcerting than the WiKi breaking Gandalf's staff.

I agree with you here. That would be it- the end. Sauron would know where the ring was and would send his entire force over. And the Nazgul never even has a good reason to fly off. What's worse is that this part is in all the versions and wasn't cut out.