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#1 | |
Wight
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 204
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Olorin is said to be afraid of Sauron, which makes sense, but the WK is a different story. Now Tolkien does say somewhere that the Witch King has been invested with new powers, presumably transferring some of his own power on to the WK. But this is never mentioned in the movie, so the scene at the gates where Gandalf's staff is broken comes across as incongruous given all the preceding scenes... In fact, the real point is that there is no coherent interpretation of Gandalf in the movies...
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#2 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
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I agree with your disagreement and your conclusion on coherency. The scene is annoying; in fact, it is one of the 'pimples of perturbance' that jut out with painful regularity in the LotR films like acne on an otherwise pretty face.
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#3 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Aug 2009
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[QUOTE=CSteefel;609308Now Tolkien does say somewhere that the Witch King has been invested with new powers, presumably transferring some of his own power on to the WK. But this is never mentioned in the movie, so the scene at the gates where Gandalf's staff is broken comes across as incongruous given all the preceding scenes... [/QUOTE]
"He has not revealed his most deadly servant, the one who will lead his armies into battle"... (paraphrased from memory). That to me indicates that PJ is setting this up as a more powerful WK, one that can challenge Gandalf. |
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Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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#5 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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No, Obloquoy, I will have to disagree with you on this one. PJ lifts an entire sequence from Tolkien when Gandalf flashes back with a vivid description of his resurrection after he had defeated the Balrog. The insinuation is that Gandalf is sent back from the dead to finish his mission. It would make little sense to have Gandalf die once more -- wouldn't he just be sent right back again? Obviously someone (who in the film is nameless) does not want Gandalf to die. And after he defeated a balrog! Later, Gandalf the White is seen chasing off a whole herd of Nazgul in order to rescue Faramir. In this context, the scene where Gandalf's staff is broken makes absolutely no sense, particularly since Gandalf the White had only recently broken Saruman's staff (which would, I believe, show plainly that Gandalf's power has increased exponentially as well). So let's see here, the movies show: 1. Gandalf defeating the Balrog 2. Gandalf being resurrected 3. Gandalf claiming Saruman's 'White' title 4. Gandalf breaking Saruman's staff (after being completely unaffected by a huge fireball flung by Saruman, mind you) 5. Gandalf easily chasing away several Nazgul with a magic blast of white light The plotting is uneven and in places downright sloppy. It is Peter Jackson merely going for cheap thrills and effects rather than offering a cohesive and unambiguous plot.
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#6 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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#7 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Nothing. But if Gandalf is not a Maia in the film, he's certainly an Aztec as far as semi-divine manifestations go
![]() Jackson's use of the famous WiKi line "No man can kill me" would no longer apply to resurrected Gandalf, who is no longer mortal nor a man in the strictest sense, anymore than Jesus Christ would be considered mortal man after his resurrection. Jackson's script directly refers to other powers reviving Gandalf and thus an achievement of immortality: "....Until at last, I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside. Darkness took me. And I strayed out of thought and time. Stars wheeled overhead and each day was as long as a life age of the earth. But it was not the end. I felt life in me again. I've been sent back until my task is done. " The emphasized line "I've been sent back until my task is done" is a direct reference to heavenly intervention (and Gandalf taking Frodo on the last ship merely bolsters the inference of immortality). Therefore, your insinuation that "[Gandalf is] just a cranky old wizard who is sometimes impressive, but clearly not up to dealing with the WK..." is not the perception Jackson portrays after Gandalf's defeat of the Balrog. Again, the scripting is uneven and relies on gimmickery and visual appeal over substance and continuity. It's much like how PJ dragged Faramir through the dirt for several agonizing sequences before finally showing the character's nobility. The utterly absurd segment where Frodo shows a flying Nazgul the Ring and Faramir finally decides to set the hobbits free is part and parcel of PJ's inconsistency as he bounces from stunning visual vignettes and rebounds to attempt to tell the story. In fact, I think the scene where Frodo shows the Nazgul the Ring in Osgiliath is even more disconcerting than the WiKi breaking Gandalf's staff. Logic would dictate that the Nazgul, upon seeing a hobbit with the Ring, would not simply fly away, but would call his cohorts and all the collected armies of Mordor to that one point. Frodo would not have even made it into Mordor if logic, even inconsistent movie pretzel logic, prevailed. Bah, I've drank too much coffee.
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#8 |
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
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I agree with you here. That would be it- the end. Sauron would know where the ring was and would send his entire force over. And the Nazgul never even has a good reason to fly off. What's worse is that this part is in all the versions and wasn't cut out.
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#9 | |
Wight
Join Date: Sep 2006
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In fact, the original point was that PJ has no coherent and consistent representation of Gandalf, particularly after he returned. You cannot borrow entire scenes from Tolkien implying clearly the return of a Maia, and then drop it suddenly in front of the Gates of Minas Tirith...
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#10 |
Wight
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Others have mentioned as well the letter in which Tolkien says that the WK was invested with new power shortly by Sauron shortly before the last battle on the Pelennor. Not sure if you are denying this point, or objecting to the use of the phrase "transferring power". Perhaps the better phrase would be that Sauron gave the WK new power...
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#11 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Last edited by obloquy; 09-01-2009 at 09:33 AM. |
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#12 | |
Wight
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 204
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As for the investment of power in the WK (real or not), if you have the exact quote and can comment on how you interpret it, that would help. Otherwise, this point was to actually support your point of view (assuming that we needed anything from Tolkien here). Otherwise, you are left with a vague statement in the movies about not having revealed his most deadly servant, which does not really imply clearly an enhancement of power. So one is left with simply the fact that the WK did break Gandalf's staff, so as I said earlier, PJ simply changes the equation with no warning here. If that is consistent film making, give me another director...
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#13 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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The incongruity is in the scripting. Somehow part-time shield maiden Eowyn is more powerful than the balrog-smoting Gandalf? That's what the addled inference is. Inconsistency -- picking and choosing jumbled aspects of the story in order to glorify special effects -- this is the infuriating aspect of the films.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. Last edited by Morthoron; 09-01-2009 at 12:09 PM. |
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#14 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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The revelation of the WK's heretofore hidden potential is the encounter with Gandalf. The scene establishes the "oh goodness, what are we going to do now?" feeling that is appropriate for the battle on the Pelennor. Eowyn's victory over the WK is no more shocking in the film than it was (and was intended to be) in the book.
The hierarchy that the film sets up is roughly as follows: Sauron WK Gandalf the White Saruman Gandalf the Grey The Balrog Aragorn Ringwraiths I am not saying that it is good Tolkien, only that it is internally consistent since there are no disclosures of spiritual nature in the films. Viewers (Tolkien illiterates) take this revelation (and others like it) at face value: instead of resisting it because they know Gandalf is more powerful than the WK (which they don't), they allow the film to readjust their perceptions of the characters. They reconcile what's on screen by reasoning that, although Gandalf was once able to drive the Ringwraiths off, the WK is clearly much more formidable than he used to be. We can apply this logic to every encounter: all that is revealed by Gandalf's defeat of the Balrog, for example, is that the Balrog, overblown as he was, fell somewhere beneath Gandalf and RotK-level WK on the totem pole. Quote:
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#15 | |
Wight
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 204
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#16 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Ummm...no, it isn't. The WitchKing is not Gandalf's adversary, Sauron is. Jackson brings in the inconsistency with the WitchKing bringing Gandalf to his knees with little or no effort, which is absurd from a canonical standpoint, and conflicting with the context of the movie itself (as I've already pointed out in previous posts). Eowyn is a mortal woman (and jibes with the WiKi prophecy), and the baneful blade of Westernesse Merry uses was crafted by mortal Dunedain (which is not mentioned in the movie, and is another aspect that makes no sense from a movie viewpoint). The WitchKing was meant to fall to a mortal, but Jackson does not explain how a simple Hobbit can wound a Nazgul, but how that same Nazgul can so easily overpower a resurrected wizard (fresh from defeating a balrog and another wizard) without a scratch.
Again, inconsistent even within the context of the movie. P.S. To point out the inconsistencies further, if you recall PJ intended to have Sauron himself fight Aragorn at the Black Gates. Luckily, cooler heads prevailed and Sauron was hastily edited over and replaced by a troll. The movies are littered with such over-the-top and silly peaens to cheap thrills. Arwen/Xena the warrior princess is another. My point is, there really is no inner consistency to the movies, merely departure points from one special effects sequence to the next.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. Last edited by Morthoron; 09-01-2009 at 02:45 PM. |
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#17 | ||
Wight
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 204
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Otherwise, it doesn't really matter, since dropping this "added demonic force" only makes the portrayal of the WiKi-Gandalf encounter harder to understand...
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