Middle-earth Bad Popularity Cup

[Nogrod]

I'm also attaching myself to Skip here:

Originally Posted by skip spence

That whole Army of the Dead thing I like to ignore, pretending it didn't exist. It's silly and my least favourite part of the whole trilogy.

In the movie-version the army of the dead was just an annoying Deus ex machina, but it was something like that in the books as well. Using a Finnish expression, it was "glued over" the story eg. not an inherent part of it.

I thought the army of the dead cool and great at twelve but from that on I've learned better...

So for me it will be

++ Eöl

Even if I would actually vote for Ancalagon over Eöl at any moment, without hesitation...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I'm also attaching myself to Skip here:
In the movie-version the army of the dead was just an annoying Deus ex machina, but it was something like that in the books as well. Using a Finnish expression, it was "glued over" the story eg. not an inherent part of it.

Nonsense! Why is it so bad? Come on, it was foreseen there and all sorts of these things, what would you like to have, four and half Dúnedain arriving from the North just to make the army of Rohirrim four and half men stronger, for no particular reason, much like the so-called Elves in the movie at Helm's Deep? Bah! The Oathbreakers were cool, and this Grey Company, although it never interested me, to be honest, as there's really hardly anything about their doings in the books, fits there. Imagine Gimli and Legolas charging onto the Mordor armies on Pelennor along with the Rohirrim. Impossible! The whole passage through the Paths of the Dead, and dealing with the Corsairs was quite good - and it would have been probably even better if we could learn more of it there, true. I think the problem of it being deus-ex-machinish is just in that there was too little space given to this episode (of course, the book is not inflatable, or at least should not be, unlike many other, especially fantasy books we can see today), so it had to be sort of cut short: Dead came, Corsairs are finished. One or two pages of maneuvering around Pelargir would have been good as well. But actually, when I read that part now, I am quite content even with this way of using it.

That's not to say anything of Ancalagon. I would have probably chosen him over Eöl as well. But there surely will be enough dragons... (and just as Nogrod said, they are for real. Quite. )

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate

Nonsense! Why is it so bad? Come on, it was foreseen there and all sorts of these things, what would you like to have, four and half Dúnedain arriving from the North just to make the army of Rohirrim four and half men stronger
...
Imagine Gimli and Legolas charging onto the Mordor armies on Pelennor along with the Rohirrim. Impossible!

That's just to the point! They were losing and they were losing badly. So the Deus ex machina comes to save them all!

And on the contrary I always found this grey company the most intriguing thing... something I would have loved to read more about - just like lord Imrahil and all these South-Gondorians. One could have made a heroic standing with those as well but it would still have meant defeat I'm afraid... and you can't end the story without the good guys winning now can you?

So let's come up with a whole army unforeseen to anyone who will make the difference in the battle at tyhe last minute? Now what was the definition of the Deus ex machina again?

I'm yet not convinced...

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Several hours left to vote. So far

Eol 4
KotD 3

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Now to business - the fact is, Eöl is a horrible pig

Oh, I couldn't have phrased that better, sis

Originally Posted by Nogrod

That's just to the point! They were losing and they were losing badly. So the Deus ex machina comes to save them all!

And on the contrary I always found this grey company the most intriguing thing... something I would have loved to read more about - just like lord Imrahil and all these South-Gondorians. One could have made a heroic standing with those as well but it would still have meant defeat I'm afraid... and you can't end the story without the good guys winning now can you?

So let's come up with a whole army unforeseen to anyone who will make the difference in the battle at tyhe last minute? Now what was the definition of the Deus ex machina again?

Now actually you bring up something interesting, which would, however, almost be for a separate thread. You made me think what if the Dead did not come out and Aragorn would have stormed Pelargir just with several Lamedonians... the main problem would be still that the Corsairs would, as soon as possible, have left to the North anyway... but I thought it would have been far more cool if they started to wreak havoc around the Southern Gondor, and after the battle at Pelennor (which would have been likely a bit more disasterous, although still possible of being victorious), there will be no march to the Black Gate, but everybody would have needed to pack their stuff and go to liberate Pelargir and all the southern provinces... intriguing, I say.

And speaking of South Gondorians, this captain of theirs had a cool name - Angbor. Now that's a guy I would have liked to hear more about...

But here we are going off-topic

But come on, people - a few hours still left, doesn't anyone vote for the King of the Dead? He is nice! He has a spear! And is scaring young Rohanian princes to death! Come on!

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Shelob

P. S. Also, a change, like the dragons there are
a surfeit of trolls, so if there are no
objections I've replaced Bert with the
mayor of Laketown (Tolkien's literary
cautionary tale of democracy? )

P.P.S. Saruman wasn't included.
Should he be given a second chance even though
he disappointed in Skip's tournament?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

P. S. Also, a change, like the dragons there are
a surfeit of trolls, so if there are no
objections I've replaced Bert with the
mayor of Laketown (Tolkien's literary
cautionary tale of democracy? )

Yes! Now that sounds good. Although, isn't it unfair for Bert to be outed when Tom and Bill are around? At least I like him more than Tom. I say, you shouldn't make too many changes in the lists anyway... let it be as it is... but of course, for this one minor change...

P.P.S. Saruman wasn't included.
Should he be given a second chance even though
he disappointed in Skip's tournament?

Well, you know, I wouldn't do so. I think it will be quite unfair to the others. He will be too much different from most of those who are here, and he's been in one tournament already, and also... he is not bad, he is good

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Skippy

frequent visits to Nogrod

(Okay, sorry, that bolding was mine - just couldn't resist. )

Now to business - the fact is, Eöl is a horrible pig, and though he did produce a cool son it's the son who is cool and not him. He's one of the most disgusting people Tolkien ever invented. Now The King of the Dead, as Tolkien describes him, is fascinating and beautiful. I like him. (No, I don't like that little green Barbossa-impersonator, he's baaad.)

So:

++ King of the Dead

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Now to business - the fact is, Eöl is a horrible pig, and though he did produce a cool son it's the son who is cool and not him.

I couldn't agree more!

The King of the Dead produced the best, and most memorable, part of The Return of the King! He was even feared by a Dwarf, now that's saying something. Anyone who can make a Gimli quake in his boots has got my vote.

++The King of the Dead

[Tuor in Gondolin]

With less then an hour to go the contst
is on a knife's edge. 4-4 now, but
Eol will win this tie.
Tick. Tick. Tick.

And about the counetrfactual fiction/history
above, for JRRT's concept I think Aragorn
has to come in from the south. Without the
written narrative it might be something like
Aragorn's (book) company fighting their
way through (with Strider actually dispatching
the KotD) and then rallying the South
Gondorians, who would of course have to
have enough of a navy to take over the
Corsairs fleet. In some ways a more satisfactory
plot then the somewhat deux ex machina
(and it might have dissuaded PJ from
the invasion of the green slime at Minsas Tirith).

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Eol 4
KotD 4
Eol wins a tiebreaker! (Won't his dad be proud?)

Next:
Scatha the Worm vs. Shelob in what could be
another long night for dragon power.

[Morthoron]

Perhaps, like Ancalagon the Black, it is because of the dearth of information on Scatha that makes the dragon intriguing, or dragons are just interesting in and of themselves. In any case, this is yet another Tolkien character that got only a passing mention, but for whom I'd love to hear a more fleshed-out tale. Shelob? Meh, just an arachnid bully eating orcses and little hobbits if she can get them. She's nothing like her great-grandma Ungoliant, who made even Morgoth tremble.

++Scatha the Worm

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Eol wins a tiebreaker! (Won't his dad be proud?)

Eol had a dad? Hmmm...I believe, like Thingol, he was among the Firstborn.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

And about the counetrfactual fiction/history
above, for JRRT's concept I think Aragorn
has to come in from the south. Without the
written narrative it might be something like
Aragorn's (book) company fighting their
way through (with Strider actually dispatching
the KotD) and then rallying the South
Gondorians, who would of course have to
have enough of a navy to take over the
Corsairs fleet. In some ways a more satisfactory
plot then the somewhat deux ex machina
(and it might have dissuaded PJ from
the invasion of the green slime at Minsas Tirith).

Counterfactual history, now you got it, sir

Okay, just briefly - not to be off-topic too much - this won't work anyway, otherwise, it will be far better for the South Gondorians to just send more troops to Minas Tirith in the first place (seeing that they have enough men themselves to cope with the Corsairs), in which case, the battle will be obviously victorious for Minas Tirith in the first place. But we needed this typical "our heroes look like they will be obviously doomed" and then this sudden turn of the tide. And this was only possible if the Corsairs were stronger. And this again needed some reinforcements to come. And the Dead were still quite a smooth way to do that, I can't think of anything better now (like I said, Elves from Lórien won't do...).

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Perhaps, like Ancalagon the Black, it is because of the dearth of information on Scatha that makes the dragon intriguing, or dragons are just interesting in and of themselves. In any case, this is yet another Tolkien character that got only a passing mention, but for whom I'd love to hear a more fleshed-out tale.

Yes, unlike Ancalagon the Black, perhaps because the lack of information, Scatha is intriguing. I like him. He was nice. I liked him very "early" - short after I read LotR for the first time. He was a cold-drake, but that does not prevent him from being cool, quite the opposite And he was killed by a man from Éotheod, now isn't that great?

++Scatha

Eol had a dad? Hmmm...I believe, like Thingol, he was among the Firstborn.

I think Tuor had his son in mind.

[Eönwë]

I vote

++Scatha
I would vote for Ungoliant, but not Shelob. And dragons are amazing!

[Andsigil]

++Scatha, because he would eat Shelob for a snack.

[the phantom]

They're both big and bad.

We know more about Shelob, so I'll vote for her.

But no, Scatha could probably burn her up. I'll vote for him.

But wait, that whole Shelob bit in LotR is so memorable. I'll vote for her.

But gah- dragons are cool, and spiders are creepy and gross. I'll vote for him.

*flips coin*

++Scatha

[Nogrod]

Going with the flow for a change... and agreeing with Eonwë and Andsigil... and the phantom as well with the indecisiveness.

So I've made up my mind.

++ Scatha

It was an outrageous thing to call Ancalagon off so let's see the dragons prevail even once!

[Tuor in Gondolin]

In stunning news to the arachnid world
Scatha the Worm ousted heavy
favorite Shelob 6-3, raising the
real possibility of three dragons in the
Sweet Sixteen, although both Smaug
and the Father of Dragons (makes you
wonder who the mother was ) will
face some stiff competition.

Next match:
the White Cats (of Queen Beruthiel) vs. Tom
(can a hoard of cats take out a troll obviously
born within the sound of Bow Bells ?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Going with the flow for a change... and agreeing with Eonwë and Andsigil... and the phantom as well with the indecisiveness.

So I've made up my mind.

++ Scatha

It was an outrageous thing to call Ancalagon off so let's see the dragons prevail even once!

Oh my! That was my 5000th post! And I missed any celebrations!

But to the topic.

I like cats as well as Greenie but c'mon there's no question on this one

++ Tom

But I would like to wonder about the sanity (or evilness) of the mod setting such marvellous characters up against each other on the previous rounds and now presenting us with this choice. To be earnest, both candidates on this round would have lost to anyone on the previous ones...