Middle-earth Bad Popularity Cup

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Eol is an interesting character, but he made
a series of wrong decisions, including a semi-forced marriage.
Whereas the King of the Dead made one decision
(arguably a rational one) to not join in an attack against
a maia with a potent army and subsequently he and his
people suffered centuries of mental torment. He seems
more sympathetic, so I think I'll go along with the
thinking of the Legate of Amon Lanc and help
rehabilitate PJ's green slime:

+ + King of the Dead

Oh, and he did freak out that drunken cheeky Rohan noble.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Oh, and he did freak out that drunken cheeky Rohan noble.

That's quite true. Yea, so:

++ King of the Dead

Besides, the way he was before he was cursed, he reminds me of Nazgul before they became Wraiths - I mean, like, when they were still living Men. I always liked this idea of what they may have been during their lives.

[skip spence]

That whole Army of the Dead thing I like to ignore, pretending it didn't exist. It's silly and my least favourite part of the whole trilogy.

Eöl the Dark Elf is great though with his webs of enchantment, bad boy persona and frequent visits to Nogrod and Belegost. No wonder The White Lady fell for him after a life among the priggish Noldor. I wish there were more info on him.

++Eöl

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Don't complain - skippy was much more evil.

Hey now, I'm just a victim of inevitable consequences or ill-fated coincidences. Besides, did I ever beat up puppy-dogs or rob old ladies? That's right, I didn't!

[Nogrod]

I'm also attaching myself to Skip here:

Originally Posted by skip spence

That whole Army of the Dead thing I like to ignore, pretending it didn't exist. It's silly and my least favourite part of the whole trilogy.

In the movie-version the army of the dead was just an annoying Deus ex machina, but it was something like that in the books as well. Using a Finnish expression, it was "glued over" the story eg. not an inherent part of it.

I thought the army of the dead cool and great at twelve but from that on I've learned better...

So for me it will be

++ Eöl

Even if I would actually vote for Ancalagon over Eöl at any moment, without hesitation...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I'm also attaching myself to Skip here:
In the movie-version the army of the dead was just an annoying Deus ex machina, but it was something like that in the books as well. Using a Finnish expression, it was "glued over" the story eg. not an inherent part of it.

Nonsense! Why is it so bad? Come on, it was foreseen there and all sorts of these things, what would you like to have, four and half Dúnedain arriving from the North just to make the army of Rohirrim four and half men stronger, for no particular reason, much like the so-called Elves in the movie at Helm's Deep? Bah! The Oathbreakers were cool, and this Grey Company, although it never interested me, to be honest, as there's really hardly anything about their doings in the books, fits there. Imagine Gimli and Legolas charging onto the Mordor armies on Pelennor along with the Rohirrim. Impossible! The whole passage through the Paths of the Dead, and dealing with the Corsairs was quite good - and it would have been probably even better if we could learn more of it there, true. I think the problem of it being deus-ex-machinish is just in that there was too little space given to this episode (of course, the book is not inflatable, or at least should not be, unlike many other, especially fantasy books we can see today), so it had to be sort of cut short: Dead came, Corsairs are finished. One or two pages of maneuvering around Pelargir would have been good as well. But actually, when I read that part now, I am quite content even with this way of using it.

That's not to say anything of Ancalagon. I would have probably chosen him over Eöl as well. But there surely will be enough dragons... (and just as Nogrod said, they are for real. Quite. )

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate

Nonsense! Why is it so bad? Come on, it was foreseen there and all sorts of these things, what would you like to have, four and half Dúnedain arriving from the North just to make the army of Rohirrim four and half men stronger
...
Imagine Gimli and Legolas charging onto the Mordor armies on Pelennor along with the Rohirrim. Impossible!

That's just to the point! They were losing and they were losing badly. So the Deus ex machina comes to save them all!

And on the contrary I always found this grey company the most intriguing thing... something I would have loved to read more about - just like lord Imrahil and all these South-Gondorians. One could have made a heroic standing with those as well but it would still have meant defeat I'm afraid... and you can't end the story without the good guys winning now can you?

So let's come up with a whole army unforeseen to anyone who will make the difference in the battle at tyhe last minute? Now what was the definition of the Deus ex machina again?

I'm yet not convinced...

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Several hours left to vote. So far

Eol 4
KotD 3

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Now to business - the fact is, Eöl is a horrible pig

Oh, I couldn't have phrased that better, sis

Originally Posted by Nogrod

That's just to the point! They were losing and they were losing badly. So the Deus ex machina comes to save them all!

And on the contrary I always found this grey company the most intriguing thing... something I would have loved to read more about - just like lord Imrahil and all these South-Gondorians. One could have made a heroic standing with those as well but it would still have meant defeat I'm afraid... and you can't end the story without the good guys winning now can you?

So let's come up with a whole army unforeseen to anyone who will make the difference in the battle at tyhe last minute? Now what was the definition of the Deus ex machina again?

Now actually you bring up something interesting, which would, however, almost be for a separate thread. You made me think what if the Dead did not come out and Aragorn would have stormed Pelargir just with several Lamedonians... the main problem would be still that the Corsairs would, as soon as possible, have left to the North anyway... but I thought it would have been far more cool if they started to wreak havoc around the Southern Gondor, and after the battle at Pelennor (which would have been likely a bit more disasterous, although still possible of being victorious), there will be no march to the Black Gate, but everybody would have needed to pack their stuff and go to liberate Pelargir and all the southern provinces... intriguing, I say.

And speaking of South Gondorians, this captain of theirs had a cool name - Angbor. Now that's a guy I would have liked to hear more about...

But here we are going off-topic

But come on, people - a few hours still left, doesn't anyone vote for the King of the Dead? He is nice! He has a spear! And is scaring young Rohanian princes to death! Come on!

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Shelob

P. S. Also, a change, like the dragons there are
a surfeit of trolls, so if there are no
objections I've replaced Bert with the
mayor of Laketown (Tolkien's literary
cautionary tale of democracy? )

P.P.S. Saruman wasn't included.
Should he be given a second chance even though
he disappointed in Skip's tournament?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

P. S. Also, a change, like the dragons there are
a surfeit of trolls, so if there are no
objections I've replaced Bert with the
mayor of Laketown (Tolkien's literary
cautionary tale of democracy? )

Yes! Now that sounds good. Although, isn't it unfair for Bert to be outed when Tom and Bill are around? At least I like him more than Tom. I say, you shouldn't make too many changes in the lists anyway... let it be as it is... but of course, for this one minor change...

P.P.S. Saruman wasn't included.
Should he be given a second chance even though
he disappointed in Skip's tournament?

Well, you know, I wouldn't do so. I think it will be quite unfair to the others. He will be too much different from most of those who are here, and he's been in one tournament already, and also... he is not bad, he is good

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Skippy

frequent visits to Nogrod

(Okay, sorry, that bolding was mine - just couldn't resist. )

Now to business - the fact is, Eöl is a horrible pig, and though he did produce a cool son it's the son who is cool and not him. He's one of the most disgusting people Tolkien ever invented. Now The King of the Dead, as Tolkien describes him, is fascinating and beautiful. I like him. (No, I don't like that little green Barbossa-impersonator, he's baaad.)

So:

++ King of the Dead

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Now to business - the fact is, Eöl is a horrible pig, and though he did produce a cool son it's the son who is cool and not him.

I couldn't agree more!

The King of the Dead produced the best, and most memorable, part of The Return of the King! He was even feared by a Dwarf, now that's saying something. Anyone who can make a Gimli quake in his boots has got my vote.

++The King of the Dead

[Tuor in Gondolin]

With less then an hour to go the contst
is on a knife's edge. 4-4 now, but
Eol will win this tie.
Tick. Tick. Tick.

And about the counetrfactual fiction/history
above, for JRRT's concept I think Aragorn
has to come in from the south. Without the
written narrative it might be something like
Aragorn's (book) company fighting their
way through (with Strider actually dispatching
the KotD) and then rallying the South
Gondorians, who would of course have to
have enough of a navy to take over the
Corsairs fleet. In some ways a more satisfactory
plot then the somewhat deux ex machina
(and it might have dissuaded PJ from
the invasion of the green slime at Minsas Tirith).

[Eönwë]

I vote

++Scatha
I would vote for Ungoliant, but not Shelob. And dragons are amazing!

[Andsigil]

++Scatha, because he would eat Shelob for a snack.