Could a Dwarf melee with a Balrog?

[skytree]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

As far as the light of Aman, Tolkien is explicit when he says that the Eldar of Aman are as superior to the Sindar or Silvan elves as elves are to mortals. This may include an ability to withstand damage far in excess of Moriquendi, Men or Dwarves. We know that even a Sindar like Legolas was impervious to cold and snow, just think how superior a 1st Age Noldo newcome from Aman would be. Think how the remaining 1st Age Elves, like Galadriel or Glorfindel, are viewed in context with Lord of the Rings

I don't know if their ability to withstand damage is greater than Dwarves.

Tolkien also said in the Simarillion;

"stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in emnity; they endure hardship more heartily than all other speaking peoples."

"...Last of all the eastern force to stand firm were the Dwarves of Belegost, and thus they won renown. For the Naugrim withstood fire more hardily than either Elves or Men, and it was their custom moreover to wear great masks in battle hideous to look upon; and that stood them in good stead against the Dragons. And but for them Glaurung and his brood would have withered all that was left of the Noldor. But the Naugrim made a circle about him when he assailed them, and even his mighty armour was not full proof against the blows of their great axes; and when in his rage Glaurung turned and struck down Azaghal, Lord of Belegost, and crawled over him, with his last stroke Azaghal drove a knife into his belly, and so wounded him that he fled the field, and the beasts of Angband in dismay followed after him. Then the Dwarves raised up the body of Azaghal and bore it away, and with slow steps they walked behind singing a dirge in deep voices... and gave no heed more to their foes, and none dared stay them."

This was a Noldor host led by Maedhros and Fingon, powerful 1st age Noldor. Except for the Noldor in Gondolin with Turgon, the rest of the Noldor would have been wiped from Middle Earth in that battle, save for their Dwarves and their hardiness to withstand Glaurung. Let's not forget the Helm of Hador, it was dwarven made and was to massive for any elf to wear. It was giften to Fingon, and no elf in his kingdom was strong enough to wear it. Only very large powerful men such Hador or Turin had the strength to support its weight.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by skytree

This was a Noldor host led by Maedhros and Fingon, powerful 1st age Noldor. Except for the Noldor in Gondolin with Turgon, the rest of the Noldor would have been wiped from Middle Earth in that battle, save for their Dwarves and their hardiness to withstand Glaurung.

Amusingly, you seem to isolate Glaurung as the only peril the Noldor faced in that battle. Let's see, there were Balrogs (Gothmog and a friend ganged up on Fingon), an entire army of Men under Ulfang who betrayed them, countless orcs and hundreds of trolls (if Hurin axed more than 70 trolls, there had to be many more), and then along comes Glaurung as the cherry on top. The passage in the Sil also indicates that if the Easterlings had not betrayed the Noldor, they more than likely would have won the battle. *shrugs*

Interestingly, although the dwarves drove off the immature Glaurung, they never killed any dragon of note. They were driven in large numbers from Erebor by Smaug, and they relied on Fram, a Northman, to kill Scatha. Add to that being crushed in Moria by the Balrog, and their track record against fierce Morgothian opponents is rather spotty.

Very perceptive post, Ibrin, particularly since I agree with you.

[BGreg]

Interestingly, although the dwarves drove off the immature Glaurung, they never killed any dragon of note. They were driven in large numbers from Erebor by Smaug, and they relied on Fram, a Northman, to kill Scatha. Add to that being crushed in Moria by the Balrog, and their track record against fierce Morgothian opponents is rather spotty.

Yes, that is a part of the Tolkien lore i do not quite understand. Especially since, like skytree quotes the Sil :

For the Naugrim withstood fire more hardily than either Elves or Men, and it was their custom moreover to wear great masks in battle hideous to look upon; and that stood them in good stead against the Dragons.

It seems kinda contradictory then that the dwarves didn't fare well with the dragons. Maybe we just don't know anything of the many killed dragons during the war in the north, when most of the dwarves were banished from the Grey Mountains.
Hmmm... The dragons must have been very persistent, or I wouldn't be able to explain why dwarves lost almost every colony they had. Oh wait, I can't explain it

[Pitchwife]

The more I ponder this question, the more I realize that the crucial extra quality inherent in the High Elves of Aman was entirely spiritual and had very little to do with classic heroic virtues. Being nourished by the Undying Lands may have enhanced their physique, but that isn't the whole story, either; rather I think being instructed by the Valar and Maiar made the difference.
Obviously my last post didn't quite convey what I mean, but to borrow a metaphor from Christian mythology: they had something vaguely like the authority over demons that Christ gave his apostles - not in the sense that they could simply banish or exorcise a Balrog, but having great power against both the Seen and the Unseen they could withstand any servant of Morgoth on its own spiritual turf, trusting that divine blessing was on their side and that, even if they fell, evil could never prevail finally. Gandalf on the Bridge of Khazad-dûm is the perfect example.

However (I'm just being obstinate now), suppose a truly heroic Dwarf had crossed the Sea when the Trees were still alive, had seen the Light and sat at the feet of the Powers, and all that, would he be able to match the deeds of Ecthelion and Glorfindel? I dare say he would. But this is, of course, idle speculation.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

However (I'm just being obstinate now), suppose a truly heroic Dwarf had crossed the Sea when the Trees were still alive, had seen the Light and sat at the feet of the Powers, and all that, would he be able to match the deeds of Ecthelion and Glorfindel? I dare say he would. But this is, of course, idle speculation.

I don't know that simply going to Aman would be the same as having been born there (or in the Timeless Halls, in the case of Gandalf/Olorin), but thinking along those lines, I do wonder how, for instance, the original Durin -- who had been fashioned by Aule in the West, but was made to sleep until after the coming of Eru's Children -- would have fared. He and the other seven fathers of the Dwarves would have been "born" in Aman long before the destruction of the Trees. But did the actual sight of the Trees confer some special blessing, which they would not have had? Just odd ponderings....

About the Dwarves and their problems with dragons, I also wonder if Melkor intended them to be a particular nemesis to the Dwarves, sort of thumbing his nose in Aule's face. Just more odd thoughts....

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

About the Dwarves and their problems with dragons, I also wonder if Melkor intended them to be a particular nemesis to the Dwarves, sort of thumbing his nose in Aule's face. Just more odd thoughts....

I always thought this made the fight of the Dwarves of Belegost against Glaurung that bit more 'heroic' and of significance. It probably explains why Thorin was so intent on reclaiming the mountain by force; I suspect he thought that, if the Dwarves of Belegost could fight off the Father of Dragons, he could band together enough fellows to fight off this upstart.
Then again, Smaug is fully grown when he attacks the Lonely Mountain, Glaurung was still a little baby dragon. Aww.

[Boo Radley]

Could a dwarf melee with a Balrog?

Sure.

Could he win?

Not so much.

[Pitchwife]

This seems to sum it up nicely.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Interestingly, although the dwarves drove off the immature Glaurung, they never killed any dragon of note.

That we know.

In a way it makes sense that the only ones we'd know about are the battles the dwarves lost. These are supposed to be elvish/human histories where dwarves are only encountered rarely. The most obvious dragon battles would be the ones where the dwarves had been driven from their homes and were thus more present around the elves/men. Their victories might not have filtered out beyond their own populations.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It does however seem to be the case that a Dragon was essentially a terrestrial opponent, its powers entirely material. Horrendous, of course, and backed with a certain 'sorcerous' hypnotic power (a legendary attribute of serpents); but still just great beasts. Glaurung was killed by a man with a sword; Smaug by a man with a bow. Balrogs are another order of being entirely, creatures of enormous 'spiritual' or 'demonic' potency; when Gandalf said "This foe is beyond any of you," that included not only Gimli, but even Aragorn with Anduril. It plainly takes more than physical prowess to endure a Balrog- and even in those cases, there's no record of *anyone* who fought a Balrog and lived (except by reboot).

[Gordis]

I believe Dwarves had issues with all sorts of creatures of the Shadow-World.

Gimli's debilitating fear when seeing the Barlog can well be explained by his own words to Celeborn:

"Indeed I saw upon the bridge that which haunts our darkest dreams l saw Durin's Bane," said Gimli in a low voice, and dread was in his eyes. -"the Mirror of Galadriel"

But how explain Gimli's fear on the Paths of the Dead before the mere ghosts of Men? Remember, Gimly was more afraid than anyone else, while Legolas was not afraid at all.

I think it might be explained by the Dwarves' relation to the "other side", the World of Shadow (or more precisely, the absence of such relation).

The Calaquendi Elves lived in both words and "wielded great power" both in the Seen and the Unseen. The same likely applied to Maiar. Both races did not fear the nazgul or ghosts and could fight Balrogs.

Ordinary Elves, like Legolas, were able to get some glimpses of the "other side":

"The Dead are following,’ said Legolas. ‘I see shapes of Men and of horses, and pale banners like shreds of cloud, and spears like winter-thickets on a misty night" (The Passing of the Grey Company).

Even mere Men were able to perceive the Dead at times

Theoden: "Folk say that Dead Men out of the Dark Years guard the way and will suffer no living man to come to their hidden halls; but at whiles they may themselves be seen passing out of the door like shadows and down the stony road."( The Muster of Rohan).

Dunedain with their strain of Elven blood were likely able to see more and master their fear on the Paths better.

Not so with a Dwarf. The fear fell on Gimli the heaviest, but he saw nothing at all, only heard whispers. Perhaps it means that the Dwarves have no access whatsoever into the World of Shadow?

Note that even the 7 Rings were unable to turn the Dwarves invisible, to transport them into the Shadow-World:

Dwarves … proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. (Of the Rings of Power…)
The dwarves it is said had seven, but nothing could make them invisible.( “Of Gollum and the Ring” in The Return of the Shadow).

The Dwarves seemingly had no power in the Unseen. Perhaps that's why the creatures of the Shadow-world (including the Balrog, the nazgul and the ghosts) were so frightening for the Dwarves?

[BGreg]

That is possible. However, you're not mentioning the fact Legolas was also pretty scared when Balrog appeared, was he not?

'Ai! Ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'

And I don't think the Men behaved much different then Gimli did. Yes, they have seen the shadows (or maybe just perceived them), but were no less frightened.

Now, about this:

The dwarves it is said had seven, but nothing could make them invisible.

So the rings had no power over them. Isn't Tom Bombadil described in the same manner in the Elrond's Council? That makes me wonder. What would happen if a dwarf had found The Ring? Would he become invisible? Apparently not, if the quote above is to be trusted. How then did the dwarves not see a person wearing The Ring, like Bilbo? Would they not have the same power Tom Bombadil had?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Gordis

The Dwarves seemingly had no power in the Unseen. Perhaps that's why the creatures of the Shadow-world (including the Balrog, the nazgul and the ghosts) were so frightening for the Dwarves?

This seems quite likely, as the dwarves were made as earthly beings by Aulë, and were only adopted as Children by Eru. They weren't made by him, so they didn't get any of the benefits of the other Children. As well as this, if it is true that they reincarnated, then they were probably more bound to the earth itself than elves. While the elves were bound to Arda completely, this also included the spirit world, and if Dwarves didn't go anywhere after they died and just reincarnated then it seems that they were actually stuck on "our side" and couldn't go into the "shadow/light world"

Originally Posted by BGreg

That is possible. However, you're not mentioning the fact Legolas was also pretty scared when Balrog appeared, was he not?

Well, he knew much more about them than the otherss, and if he was actually Laegolas of the First Age then he had experienced them first hand and seen what they could do.

Originally Posted by BGreg

So the rings had no power over them. Isn't Tom Bombadil described in the same manner in the Elrond's Council? That makes me wonder. What would happen if a dwarf had found The Ring? Would he become invisible? Apparently not, if the quote above is to be trusted. How then did the dwarves not see a person wearing The Ring, like Bilbo? Would they not have the same power Tom Bombadil had?

I don't think that he could be compared to Tom Bombadil as Tom Bombadil definately did have a lot of power against spirits. We all say what he did to the Wight, and what is a Barrow-Wight after all other than a spirit inhabiting old bones. And Tom Bombadil is immortal (or at least, didn't die so far and is still young in body). And in ME, as far as I know, all those who are don't (or can't) die, at least seem to have some internal strength, possibly on the "other side", whether for good or bad.
And Tom Bombadil isn't so "grim" and serious, is he?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by BGreg

That is possible. However, you're not mentioning the fact Legolas was also pretty scared when Balrog appeared, was he not?

As for the Balrog, there was indeed a very good reason to be scared. But for Ganalf, the balrog would have killed them all in no time. Legolas explained his fear to Celeborn

:"It was a Balrog of Morgoth,' said Legolas; `of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower."

Legolas was no Calaquende Elf to have great power in the Unseen. (I don't believe there is enough evidence that Legolas lived in the First Age - in LOTR he is written as a relatively young elf). But still he didn't fear the ghosts of Men:

there was not a heart among them that did not quail, unless it were the heart of Legolas of the Elves, for whom the ghosts of Men have no terror. - "The Passing of the Grey company."

Originally Posted by BGreg

And I don't think the Men behaved much different then Gimli did. Yes, they have seen the shadows (or maybe just perceived them), but were no less frightened.

The interesting thing is that Men were far less frightened of the Balrog that Legolas or Gimli were. Aragorn and Boromir firmly held their ground, clenching their weapons. Boromir blew his horn and was the last to retreat. Even the hobbits felt more or less OK. Legolas and Gimli, in contrast, were incapacitated by fear.
As for the Paths of the Dead, Gimli felt far worse fear than the Dunedain rangers:

Then Aragorn led the way, and such was the strength of his will in that hour that all the Dúnedain and their horses followed him. [...] Legolas passed in. And there stood Gimli the Dwarf left all alone.
His knees shook, and he was wroth with himself. ‘Here is a thing unheard of!’ he said. ‘An Elf will go underground and a Dwarf dare not!’ With that he plunged in. But it seemed to him that he dragged his feet like lead over the threshold; and at once a blindness came upon him, even upon Gimli Glóin’s son who had walked unafraid in many deep places of the world.

Originally Posted by BGreg

So the rings had no power over them. Isn't Tom Bombadil described in the same manner in the Elrond's Council? That makes me wonder. What would happen if a dwarf had found The Ring? Would he become invisible? Apparently not, if the quote above is to be trusted. How then did the dwarves not see a person wearing The Ring, like Bilbo? Would they not have the same power Tom Bombadil had?

The rings did have power over the Dwarves - the dwarves couldn't turn invisible, yes, but they used the rings to gain wealth. Mad dying Thrain found in the pits of Dol-Guldur had forgotten his name, his people, everything but his Ring - that implies that the Ring had a very strong hold on his mind.

Tom, on the other hand, was not affected by the Ring at all. Still when Frodo put on the Ring in Tom's house, Tom was able to see him quite clearly - to see him in the Spirit World and that without wearing the ring or turning invisible himself. Thus Tom probably lived in both words, like Calaquendi elves.

The Dwarves were unable to see Bilbo wearing the Ring, as you have mentioned. Unlike Tom, they had no access into the Spirit world.