Could a Dwarf melee with a Balrog?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by skytree

Azaghal and the Dwarves of Belegost saved the Noldor of Middle Earth and prevented them from being wiped out by Glaurung.

*sighs*

Yes, yes, yes...we are all aware of Azaghal and an 'army' of dwarves driving off, but not killing, an 'immature' Glaurung. The question from the original post has nothing to do with armies of this or that race, rather one combatant meleeing a Balrog.

As far as level of courage, that also is not really the main quality necessary in defeating a Balrog, is it? Gandalf felt the Balrog was beyond the strengths of Aragorn, Boromir, Gimli and Legolas, and I don't think you could question any of their courage. No, a Balrog crushed the dwarves in Moria, and it wasn't because the dwarves lacked courage, it was because they did not possess the inherent power (born of Valinor) necessary in counteracting a Balrog.

[skytree]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

*sighs*

Yes, yes, yes...we are all aware of Azaghal and an 'army' of dwarves driving off, but not killing, an 'immature' Glaurung. The question from the original post has nothing to do with armies of this or that race, rather one combatant meleeing a Balrog.

As far as level of courage, that also is not really the main quality necessary in defeating a Balrog, is it? Gandalf felt the Balrog was beyond the strengths of Aragorn, Boromir, Gimli and Legolas, and I don't think you could question any of their courage. No, a Balrog crushed the dwarves in Moria, and it wasn't because the dwarves lacked courage, it was because they did not possess the inherent power (born of Valinor) necessary in counteracting a Balrog.

Why does that power not counteract facing a powerful mortal creature as in Naugladur slaying Thingol or any Noldor that has been slain by Orc or Troll?

The light of Aman obviously does not provide any greater physical strength than the individual was born with, so one can only assume with your argument it simply removes any supernatural defense that a corrupted Maia like a Balrog may possess and makes them vulnerable to that individual.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by skytree

Why does that power not counteract facing a powerful mortal creature as in Naugladur slaying Thingol or any Noldor that has been slain by Orc or Troll?.

What makes the murder of Thingol such a courageous thing? He was surrounded by dwarves and backstabbed. Sorry, no glory points for you.

Originally Posted by skytree

The light of Aman obviously does not provide any greater physical strength than the individual was born with, so one can only assume with your argument it simply removes any supernatural defense that a corrupted Maia like a Balrog may possess and makes them vulnerable to that individual.

It is essentially the same 'essence' that caused the WitchKing to flee from Glorfindel on two occasions, but display no fear whatsoever of Earnur.

As far as the light of Aman, Tolkien is explicit when he says that the Eldar of Aman are as superior to the Sindar or Silvan elves as elves are to mortals. This may include an ability to withstand damage far in excess of Moriquendi, Men or Dwarves. We know that even a Sindar like Legolas was impervious to cold and snow, just think how superior a 1st Age Noldo newcome from Aman would be. Think how the remaining 1st Age Elves, like Galadriel or Glorfindel, are viewed in context with Lord of the Rings

[skytree]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

As far as the light of Aman, Tolkien is explicit when he says that the Eldar of Aman are as superior to the Sindar or Silvan elves as elves are to mortals. This may include an ability to withstand damage far in excess of Moriquendi, Men or Dwarves. We know that even a Sindar like Legolas was impervious to cold and snow, just think how superior a 1st Age Noldo newcome from Aman would be. Think how the remaining 1st Age Elves, like Galadriel or Glorfindel, are viewed in context with Lord of the Rings

I don't know if their ability to withstand damage is greater than Dwarves.

Tolkien also said in the Simarillion;

"stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in emnity; they endure hardship more heartily than all other speaking peoples."

"...Last of all the eastern force to stand firm were the Dwarves of Belegost, and thus they won renown. For the Naugrim withstood fire more hardily than either Elves or Men, and it was their custom moreover to wear great masks in battle hideous to look upon; and that stood them in good stead against the Dragons. And but for them Glaurung and his brood would have withered all that was left of the Noldor. But the Naugrim made a circle about him when he assailed them, and even his mighty armour was not full proof against the blows of their great axes; and when in his rage Glaurung turned and struck down Azaghal, Lord of Belegost, and crawled over him, with his last stroke Azaghal drove a knife into his belly, and so wounded him that he fled the field, and the beasts of Angband in dismay followed after him. Then the Dwarves raised up the body of Azaghal and bore it away, and with slow steps they walked behind singing a dirge in deep voices... and gave no heed more to their foes, and none dared stay them."

This was a Noldor host led by Maedhros and Fingon, powerful 1st age Noldor. Except for the Noldor in Gondolin with Turgon, the rest of the Noldor would have been wiped from Middle Earth in that battle, save for their Dwarves and their hardiness to withstand Glaurung. Let's not forget the Helm of Hador, it was dwarven made and was to massive for any elf to wear. It was giften to Fingon, and no elf in his kingdom was strong enough to wear it. Only very large powerful men such Hador or Turin had the strength to support its weight.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by skytree

This was a Noldor host led by Maedhros and Fingon, powerful 1st age Noldor. Except for the Noldor in Gondolin with Turgon, the rest of the Noldor would have been wiped from Middle Earth in that battle, save for their Dwarves and their hardiness to withstand Glaurung.

Amusingly, you seem to isolate Glaurung as the only peril the Noldor faced in that battle. Let's see, there were Balrogs (Gothmog and a friend ganged up on Fingon), an entire army of Men under Ulfang who betrayed them, countless orcs and hundreds of trolls (if Hurin axed more than 70 trolls, there had to be many more), and then along comes Glaurung as the cherry on top. The passage in the Sil also indicates that if the Easterlings had not betrayed the Noldor, they more than likely would have won the battle. *shrugs*

Interestingly, although the dwarves drove off the immature Glaurung, they never killed any dragon of note. They were driven in large numbers from Erebor by Smaug, and they relied on Fram, a Northman, to kill Scatha. Add to that being crushed in Moria by the Balrog, and their track record against fierce Morgothian opponents is rather spotty.

Very perceptive post, Ibrin, particularly since I agree with you.

[BGreg]

Interestingly, although the dwarves drove off the immature Glaurung, they never killed any dragon of note. They were driven in large numbers from Erebor by Smaug, and they relied on Fram, a Northman, to kill Scatha. Add to that being crushed in Moria by the Balrog, and their track record against fierce Morgothian opponents is rather spotty.

Yes, that is a part of the Tolkien lore i do not quite understand. Especially since, like skytree quotes the Sil :

For the Naugrim withstood fire more hardily than either Elves or Men, and it was their custom moreover to wear great masks in battle hideous to look upon; and that stood them in good stead against the Dragons.

It seems kinda contradictory then that the dwarves didn't fare well with the dragons. Maybe we just don't know anything of the many killed dragons during the war in the north, when most of the dwarves were banished from the Grey Mountains.
Hmmm... The dragons must have been very persistent, or I wouldn't be able to explain why dwarves lost almost every colony they had. Oh wait, I can't explain it

[Pitchwife]

The more I ponder this question, the more I realize that the crucial extra quality inherent in the High Elves of Aman was entirely spiritual and had very little to do with classic heroic virtues. Being nourished by the Undying Lands may have enhanced their physique, but that isn't the whole story, either; rather I think being instructed by the Valar and Maiar made the difference.
Obviously my last post didn't quite convey what I mean, but to borrow a metaphor from Christian mythology: they had something vaguely like the authority over demons that Christ gave his apostles - not in the sense that they could simply banish or exorcise a Balrog, but having great power against both the Seen and the Unseen they could withstand any servant of Morgoth on its own spiritual turf, trusting that divine blessing was on their side and that, even if they fell, evil could never prevail finally. Gandalf on the Bridge of Khazad-dûm is the perfect example.

However (I'm just being obstinate now), suppose a truly heroic Dwarf had crossed the Sea when the Trees were still alive, had seen the Light and sat at the feet of the Powers, and all that, would he be able to match the deeds of Ecthelion and Glorfindel? I dare say he would. But this is, of course, idle speculation.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

However (I'm just being obstinate now), suppose a truly heroic Dwarf had crossed the Sea when the Trees were still alive, had seen the Light and sat at the feet of the Powers, and all that, would he be able to match the deeds of Ecthelion and Glorfindel? I dare say he would. But this is, of course, idle speculation.

I don't know that simply going to Aman would be the same as having been born there (or in the Timeless Halls, in the case of Gandalf/Olorin), but thinking along those lines, I do wonder how, for instance, the original Durin -- who had been fashioned by Aule in the West, but was made to sleep until after the coming of Eru's Children -- would have fared. He and the other seven fathers of the Dwarves would have been "born" in Aman long before the destruction of the Trees. But did the actual sight of the Trees confer some special blessing, which they would not have had? Just odd ponderings....

About the Dwarves and their problems with dragons, I also wonder if Melkor intended them to be a particular nemesis to the Dwarves, sort of thumbing his nose in Aule's face. Just more odd thoughts....

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Interestingly, although the dwarves drove off the immature Glaurung, they never killed any dragon of note.

That we know.

In a way it makes sense that the only ones we'd know about are the battles the dwarves lost. These are supposed to be elvish/human histories where dwarves are only encountered rarely. The most obvious dragon battles would be the ones where the dwarves had been driven from their homes and were thus more present around the elves/men. Their victories might not have filtered out beyond their own populations.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It does however seem to be the case that a Dragon was essentially a terrestrial opponent, its powers entirely material. Horrendous, of course, and backed with a certain 'sorcerous' hypnotic power (a legendary attribute of serpents); but still just great beasts. Glaurung was killed by a man with a sword; Smaug by a man with a bow. Balrogs are another order of being entirely, creatures of enormous 'spiritual' or 'demonic' potency; when Gandalf said "This foe is beyond any of you," that included not only Gimli, but even Aragorn with Anduril. It plainly takes more than physical prowess to endure a Balrog- and even in those cases, there's no record of *anyone* who fought a Balrog and lived (except by reboot).

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I do think you have a point, Morthoron. Gandalf does say, "Here in Rivendell there live still some of his [Sauron's] chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power." Tolkien does indicate that those Elves who were born in the Bliss of Valinor and saw the light of the Two Trees are greater in power than those who did not. If they are counted among the chief foes of Sauron, a Maia greater than any of the Balrogs, then they would also have an edge against those lesser followers of Morgoth. I don't think that anyone denies the courage and physical prowess of the Dwarves, especially since Aule made them able to bear great hardships, but there must be some reason that the entire population of Khazad-dum could not defeat the Balrog when it was alone, without other forces to back it up. The common denominator among those who did succeed in defeating a Balrog (aside from dying in the process) does appear to be some kind of higher "magic" inherent in the being who opposes it. As valiant as the Dwarves might be, they simply didn't have that edge.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

As far as level of courage, that also is not really the main quality necessary in defeating a Balrog, is it? Gandalf felt the Balrog was beyond the strengths of Aragorn, Boromir, Gimli and Legolas, and I don't think you could question any of their courage. No, a Balrog crushed the dwarves in Moria, and it wasn't because the dwarves lacked courage, it was because they did not possess the inherent power (born of Valinor) necessary in counteracting a Balrog.

I think this is a good point. If you look at other cases where Dwarves or Men encountered Balrogs, there is often explicit mention of the great fear engendered by the encounter. In the case of Dain in the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, we hear that Dain comes down from the Gate after slaying Azog (Appendix A):

...it is said that when he came down from the Gate he looked grey in the face, as one who has felt great fear

and Dain goes on to explain further when he says to Thrain

But we will not enter Khazad-dum. You will not enter Khazad-dum. Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.

Of course, Dain's words are prophetic here, since it is Gandalf (a Maiar) who finally defeats the Balrog and rids Moria of it.

Similar thoughts come from Aragorn when he mentions in the Fellowship of the Ring that in fact he had passed once into Moria, through the Eastern Gate:

'I too once passed the Dimrill Gate,' said Aragorn quietly; 'but though I also came out again, the memory is very evil. I do not wish to enter Moria a second time.'

Clearly, there is something much more than the physical prowess (or stealth) of the Balrog here, so it presumably requires a being with spiritual powers well beyond those of either a Dwarf or a Man.