Could a Dwarf melee with a Balrog?

[Morthoron]

No, a dwarf could not melee a Balrog. If you look at all the one-on-one battles between Balrogs and their opposing combatants, there is a consistent measure of whom those combatants are. In every case presented, they have come from Aman: Feanor, Fingon, Ecthelion, Glorfindel and Gandalf. When Gandalf states to the rest of the Fellowship "This foes is beyond you," I believe he is not referring to any melee skill per se, but rather a spiritual or innate magical power that is required in battling a Balrog; hence, only those who have lived in Aman have made the effort, and even then have died after defeating a Balrog.

[skytree]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

No, a dwarf could not melee a Balrog. If you look at all the one-on-one battles between Balrogs and their opposing combatants, there is a consistent measure of whom those combatants are. In every case presented, they have come from Aman: Feanor, Fingon, Ecthelion, Glorfindel and Gandalf. When Gandalf states to the rest of the Fellowship "This foes is beyond you," I believe he is not referring to any melee skill per se, but rather a spiritual or innate magical power that is required in battling a Balrog; hence, only those who have lived in Aman have made the effort, and even then have died after defeating a Balrog.

So potentially, a Maedhros for example could fare better with a Balrog then he would against an Azaghal, Naugladur, Beren, Hurin, or Turin, because the fact he had seen the light of Aman would have not have the effect it would on a Balrog?

[Pitchwife]

No, he wouldn't. Morthoron's point seems to be that sheer fighting prowess, however great, is not enough when you're facing a Balrog; you've got to have an extra something in you that only those have who have seen the Light. Which may well be true - and anyway, it's a beautfiful idea.
It's not so much that your having been to Aman would affect the Balrog in any way, but the way it affects yourself - makes you less easily daunted by evil and terror, strengthens your courage and your trust in Eru, something along these lines. And all this, of course, would be true in any other fight as well.

So maybe the poor Dwarves never had a chance. But wait a sec... What if Gimli returned from Valinor and used a time machine?

[skytree]

Azaghal and the Dwarves of Belegost saved the Noldor of Middle Earth and prevented them from being wiped out by Glaurung. Azaghal displayed as much courage in his wounding and driving Glaurung from the field as Glorfindel facing down a Balrog. The level of courage would be the same and dwarven stubbornness simply replaces seeing the light of Aman. So that could only mean seeing the light provides some magical quality that makes a creature of terror vulnerable that wouldn't provide an advantage against a more natural foe, if say Turgon and Hurin were to face off.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by skytree

Azaghal and the Dwarves of Belegost saved the Noldor of Middle Earth and prevented them from being wiped out by Glaurung.

*sighs*

Yes, yes, yes...we are all aware of Azaghal and an 'army' of dwarves driving off, but not killing, an 'immature' Glaurung. The question from the original post has nothing to do with armies of this or that race, rather one combatant meleeing a Balrog.

As far as level of courage, that also is not really the main quality necessary in defeating a Balrog, is it? Gandalf felt the Balrog was beyond the strengths of Aragorn, Boromir, Gimli and Legolas, and I don't think you could question any of their courage. No, a Balrog crushed the dwarves in Moria, and it wasn't because the dwarves lacked courage, it was because they did not possess the inherent power (born of Valinor) necessary in counteracting a Balrog.

[skytree]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

*sighs*

Yes, yes, yes...we are all aware of Azaghal and an 'army' of dwarves driving off, but not killing, an 'immature' Glaurung. The question from the original post has nothing to do with armies of this or that race, rather one combatant meleeing a Balrog.

As far as level of courage, that also is not really the main quality necessary in defeating a Balrog, is it? Gandalf felt the Balrog was beyond the strengths of Aragorn, Boromir, Gimli and Legolas, and I don't think you could question any of their courage. No, a Balrog crushed the dwarves in Moria, and it wasn't because the dwarves lacked courage, it was because they did not possess the inherent power (born of Valinor) necessary in counteracting a Balrog.

Why does that power not counteract facing a powerful mortal creature as in Naugladur slaying Thingol or any Noldor that has been slain by Orc or Troll?

The light of Aman obviously does not provide any greater physical strength than the individual was born with, so one can only assume with your argument it simply removes any supernatural defense that a corrupted Maia like a Balrog may possess and makes them vulnerable to that individual.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by skytree

Why does that power not counteract facing a powerful mortal creature as in Naugladur slaying Thingol or any Noldor that has been slain by Orc or Troll?.

What makes the murder of Thingol such a courageous thing? He was surrounded by dwarves and backstabbed. Sorry, no glory points for you.

Originally Posted by skytree

The light of Aman obviously does not provide any greater physical strength than the individual was born with, so one can only assume with your argument it simply removes any supernatural defense that a corrupted Maia like a Balrog may possess and makes them vulnerable to that individual.

It is essentially the same 'essence' that caused the WitchKing to flee from Glorfindel on two occasions, but display no fear whatsoever of Earnur.

As far as the light of Aman, Tolkien is explicit when he says that the Eldar of Aman are as superior to the Sindar or Silvan elves as elves are to mortals. This may include an ability to withstand damage far in excess of Moriquendi, Men or Dwarves. We know that even a Sindar like Legolas was impervious to cold and snow, just think how superior a 1st Age Noldo newcome from Aman would be. Think how the remaining 1st Age Elves, like Galadriel or Glorfindel, are viewed in context with Lord of the Rings

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

As far as level of courage, that also is not really the main quality necessary in defeating a Balrog, is it? Gandalf felt the Balrog was beyond the strengths of Aragorn, Boromir, Gimli and Legolas, and I don't think you could question any of their courage. No, a Balrog crushed the dwarves in Moria, and it wasn't because the dwarves lacked courage, it was because they did not possess the inherent power (born of Valinor) necessary in counteracting a Balrog.

I think this is a good point. If you look at other cases where Dwarves or Men encountered Balrogs, there is often explicit mention of the great fear engendered by the encounter. In the case of Dain in the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, we hear that Dain comes down from the Gate after slaying Azog (Appendix A):

...it is said that when he came down from the Gate he looked grey in the face, as one who has felt great fear

and Dain goes on to explain further when he says to Thrain

But we will not enter Khazad-dum. You will not enter Khazad-dum. Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria.

Of course, Dain's words are prophetic here, since it is Gandalf (a Maiar) who finally defeats the Balrog and rids Moria of it.

Similar thoughts come from Aragorn when he mentions in the Fellowship of the Ring that in fact he had passed once into Moria, through the Eastern Gate:

'I too once passed the Dimrill Gate,' said Aragorn quietly; 'but though I also came out again, the memory is very evil. I do not wish to enter Moria a second time.'

Clearly, there is something much more than the physical prowess (or stealth) of the Balrog here, so it presumably requires a being with spiritual powers well beyond those of either a Dwarf or a Man.